Workshop plans

[rumblecloud]

I've been following Jim's new house and workshop and some of the things he's doing parallel mine -- electrical for instance -- although mine is in much better shape. I want to add a couple of circuits and perhaps a 220 line. The barn has a 60A box with maybe six circuits for lights and outlets. I have about 100 feet of this:


Pretty sure it's what you call 14/3 (the numbers on the casing are obliterated). I've read up a little on adding a 220 line and think I can use this wire for that, but still would like your opinions. I also want to add a couple more outlets, especially at the workbench area and along the new wall I just added.

Is my little 60 gonna do the trick or should I call in a pro and upgrade it to like 100 or 200?
Thanks in advance.
r

 

[scotts90ranger]

It's 3 strand for sure, but if it is 14ga then that is too small for anything but 15A outlets and too small for any welder that would be 220V

 

[rumblecloud]

Did a more careful inspection of the wire and found this:



That makes me happy.

 

[Curious Hound]

Did a more careful inspection of the wire and found this:

View attachment 61161

That makes me happy.

Thats the good stuff.

 

[Rick W]

12/3 with a ground

I’m thinking the 60amp panel should be ok, but I’m looking for the crowd opinion on that too.

My shop is 27x45 +/-, I have about a dozen band saw, drill press etc machines. I have a 1hp compressor and a portable. I have a dozen 4’ double LED lights, outside lights, flood, etc. I have every power hand tool +/-, plus a half dozen batteries charging. I also have an old school stick welder on 220v.

I have more than 30 duplex outlets (way more than code), one or two duplex outlets every place convenient, and one 220 for a little laminator I have. They are on 3 “daisy chain” 20 amp circuits. But I rarely use two things at a time. That maybe with the compressor running on and off in the background, lights on in the background, batteries charging.

Unless you have a half dozen buddies helping with a project, you might have a ton of tools, but what’s the MAX you’ll be running at once? 60 amps is a lot, the 12/2 or 12/3 is plenty for the stuff up to 1hp, you’d just have to check the wire size for anything over 10-15 amps individually

Listing stuff on a spread sheet usually makes the answer jump out: item, Hp, amps, single 110, single 220, three phase or more, and then think of location and which line it will be on. THEN add one more column with an a, b, c code of which items might be on at the same time.

my 2 cents, hope it helps

 

[Rick W]

Afterthought, for daisy chaining power tools, I’d make sure the entire run is connected with the screws on the outlets (not just the push in quickie connect on the back) and/or wire nuts connecting the run with short jumpers to each outlet. Make sure you have a well connected run from panel to end.

also, on that roamex, double check for sharp kinks. I use or have used old stuff all the time from Craigslist. But a sharp kink, especially if the copper shows fatigue fracturing, can create a hot spot.

 

[rumblecloud]

Listing stuff on a spread sheet usually makes the answer jump out: item, Hp, amps, single 110, single 220, three phase or more, and then think of location and which line it will be on. THEN add one more column with an a, b, c code of which items might be on at the same time.
my 2 cents, hope it helps

I like spread sheets. Never created one for this type of stuff and wondered how to do it. Thanks for the idea.

Afterthought, for daisy chaining power tools, I’d make sure the entire run is connected with the screws on the outlets (not just the push in quickie connect on the back) and/or wire nuts connecting the run with short jumpers to each outlet. Make sure you have a well connected run from panel to end.

also, on that roamex, double check for sharp kinks. I use used or old stuff all the time from Craigslist. But a sharp kink, especially if the copper shows fatigue fracturing, can create a hot spot.

Not sure exactly what "daisy chaining" is, but I'll look it up.
As for screw on vs push in, I'll go screw on for sure

The 12/3 that I have was used to provide power to my house when it was being built. The electrician provided a panel with a box from the power pole. It ran above ground. We used it for a maybe a month before they buried a cable and finalized the panel in the basement. I rolled it up and it's been in the barn ever since - probably 1996.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Curious Hound]

12gauge wire is good up to 20amps.
14 guage wire is good up to 15amps
10 guage wire is good up to 30amps

That is code.

Obey it. For your own safety.

 

[Curious Hound]

Unless you have a half dozen buddies helping with a project, you might have a ton of tools, but what’s the MAX you’ll be running at once? 60 amps is a lot,

This is key. Design it for the max load that you would use simultaneously plus another 25%.

So if you would use the 20 amp welder and a 15 amp air compressor and a few amps worth if lights and battery chargers, then that would be around 40amps. Add 25% and that brings you to 50amps. So a 60amp service is fine. The true calculation is more complicated because some loads are 120volt, using just one hot wire and some are 240volt using both hot wires. But do it the way I outlined above and you will be close enough.

when calculating service size for a house or commercial or industrial building, the expected loads are added by their kilowatt rating and then multiplied by service factors to derate them and account for the fact that not everything is running or running at 100% all the time. That is why, when you add up the ratings of all the breakers for the circuits in your house, the total is higher than the rating of the main supply breaker.

 

[Rick W]

12gauge wire is good up to 20amps.
14 guage wire is good up to 15amps
10 guage wire is good up to 30amps

That is code.

Obey it. For your own safety.

for 120v, correct? 220/240 is half (welder, big air compressor), correct?

@rumblecloud Didn’t you do the little girl dances like I did growing up? I still enjoy a good outing. One girl is “home” and the other girls string off her (in short skirts). Did I say that out loud?

Daisy chain: a “circuit” starts in the panel on a breaker and feeds an outlet/need. That outlet/need feeds the next, that feeds the next, etc. by code, everything on the circuit won’t exceed the breaker (use +25%). That’s a daisy chain, a series circuit, not parallel, on one breaker.

(the chain can split in a fork, but all on one breaker)

Sooo, if you have several simultaneous uses (using drill or band saw) while compressor is running and you’re charging batteries and the lights are on, put such things on separate circuits (separate daisy chains) so the load is spread on different circuits evenly as possible.

I never calculated it out. I put one daisy chain circuit down east wall, one west, one south w/exterior lights, one for welder & air compressor (I never use both at the same time).

Breaking code, never advised on TRS, you add more outlets/uses on a daisy chain for convenience, outlets located where you’ll use them, knowing you won’t use that many at once. Again, knowing (KNOWING) you won’t use all at once, so usage is safe. Installing this might pose a problem with a home inspection when you sell (say thank you Jim).

I’m swamped, but I’ll send a spreadsheet sample by the weekend.

hope it helps

 

[Curious Hound]

for 120v, correct? 220/240 is half (welder, big air compressor), correct?

For current ratings? No. The same current flows through both hot legs. The wire is only rated for that many amps. Period.

 

[Curious Hound]

That’s a daisy chain, a series circuit, not parallel, on one breaker

No. They must be connected in parallel. The hot leg on one receptacle feeds to the hot leg on the next. If you don't have anything plugged into the first receptacle, you can still use the next one because they are connected in parallel.

 

[rumblecloud]

...Daisy chain: a “circuit” starts in the panel on a breaker and feeds an outlet/need. That outlet/need feeds the next, that feeds the next, etc. by code, everything on the circuit won’t exceed the breaker (use +25%)..... That’s a daisy chain, a series circuit, not parallel, on one breaker.
hope it helps

Definitely helps. I'm fairly certain that that is how the two outlet circuits are currently set-up using 20A breakers .I haven't counted the outlet boxes on each circuit yet. It seems the outlets and lights are wired in an East/West manner. The pole barn is 60x40 with the 60 length running East/West. I'm using 20x40 feet of the East end as my little house of horrors. I think there are only three existing outlets (maybe four) in that area.


I think there are enough open slots to add at least two more circuits. A 220 uses two slots I think.
I'm a little ways away from doing anything just yet, but this is all @JimOaks fault.

 

[Curious Hound]

Again, knowing (KNOWING) you won’t use all at once, so usage is safe. Installing this might pose a problem with a home inspection when you sell (say thank you Jim).

The code does not limit how many receptacles you can put in parallel on one circuit. No problem with home inspection. If you have several receptacles on a 20amp circuit and you use your toaster oven and microwave on the same circuit, the breaker should trip because the devices are trying to use too much current. So, spread your use to different circuits.

Also, do not connect all your receptacle circuits to the same hot leg in the breaker panel. As you look at the breaker panel, the top slot on each side (breakers 1 and 2) is connected to one hot leg. The next slot on each side (breakers 3 and 4) is connected to the other hot leg. And it alternates like that the whole way down the panel. So put one receptacle circuit on breaker 1. Then another on breaker 3. Put one lighting circuit on breaker 2 and another on breaker 4. This evens out the load between both incoming hot legs. It's called load balancing. The 220 volt circuits even themselves out because they use both hot legs.

 

[rumblecloud]

No. They must be connected in parallel. The hot log on one receptacle feeds to the hot leg on the next. If you don't have anything plugged into the first receptacle, you can still use the next one because they are connected in parallel.

View attachment 61221

Just saw this -- thank you EricB