Faulty Fuel Injector causing mis at startup?

[eightynine4x4]

Not on a 2.9 no.

But i believe its pretty straight forward.

High volume pump VS standard volume pump?
Not sure the risks of high volume .. maybe a 2.9 with can stand to receive the extra kick? Or maybe it’s just too risky.

 

[rubydist]

It is a bit hard to follow on the video, but I believe I am seeing 15+ psi even at idle. If that is the case, I don't think low oil pressure is the main issue.

I would take a stethescope to the heads and see if you hear a lifter clattering when the idle gets rough. I think a bad lifter (or more) may be the main issue.

 

[eightynine4x4]

It is a bit hard to follow on the video, but I believe I am seeing 15+ psi even at idle. If that is the case, I don't think low oil pressure is the main issue.

I would take a stethescope to the heads and see if you hear a lifter clattering when the idle gets rough. I think a bad lifter (or more) may be the main issue.

Regardless of doing the oil pump or not, I’m planning to open up the valve covers soon and redo the gaskets with the newer blue Fel Pro ones. Will I be able to visibly spot bad lifters when I see under the covers? What kinds of components under there should I inspect, given my strange and unpredictable performance issues ?

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Regardless of doing the oil pump or not, I’m planning to open up the valve covers soon and redo the gaskets with the newer blue Fel Pro ones. Will I be able to visibly spot bad lifters when I see under the covers? What kinds of components under there should I inspect, given my strange and unpredictable performance issues ?

You wont see a bad lifter by pulling the VC's. The lifters are under the intake and pushrods.

38PSI or is pretty low for 2000RPM, like i said spec is 55.

I would run the HV pump, but i believe the oil pump drive should be upgraded to a hardened one. They are pretty eaisly attainable last i checked.

 

[eightynine4x4]

You wont see a bad lifter by pulling the VC's. The lifters are under the intake and pushrods.

38PSI or is pretty low for 2000RPM, like i said spec is 55.

I would run the HV pump, but i believe the oil pump drive should be upgraded to a hardened one. They are pretty eaisly attainable last i checked.

Ok, well things are pretty mysterious overall so i'm at a fork in the road situation. What to pursue next? How to evaluate and better diagnose?

Possible next steps:
- evaluate ECM
- remove valve covers and inspect
- check fuel pressures
- replace oil pump
- replace O2 sensor (was already replaced recently)

I'm betting that I have 3 issues at once... A, an oil issue causing typical valve train noise and ticking, B, a persistent fuel issue demon causing unstable RMP's sometimes (especially at startup), and C, some mystery third issue that seems to cause a major distinct lump just after startup. Feels like one ( or more ) valve is just dead, causing the truck to shake. I thought it was a faulty injector which is why i started this thread, but those have been replaced so that kinda rules that out. I'd love to think that the mystery third issue is that the electrical connections are randomly not properly opening/closing the injectors and causing a dead cylinder, but again, the fact that I can just fix the issue by revving the engine a few times doesn't really correlate with being poor connection. Like once it's gone, it's completely gone for the rest of the drive. And lastly, I'd suppose it was a mechanical part messed up inside the engine, but again, why would the lump simply disappear after revving the engine a few times? That also doesn't correlate.

So if the lump isn't a clear mechanical part issue inside engine, and it isn't an electrical connection health issue, it leaves me to thinking it's either a fuel issue still, or it's the ECM losing perspective on the engine and then gain perspective again after i rev it a number of times. Is that possible? What is the part that's responsible for sending RPM information to the ECM? Is it just the TFI or is there also something else?

Recap of valve train noise / performance: During cold warmup it's a clammer and it slowly goes away as it approaches operating temp and finally gets quiet. If at that point i stop and restart it right away, it's still good sounding. But if when at op temp I stop it, and let it sit for a bit, restarting it will give me a wild card result. Sometimes it's decently quiet and sometimes it's mid way between quiet and loud. If i then drive it around casually for several minutes, it quiets up again, i'm thinking due to the motion of the oil. But if i let it sit and idle, it doesn't quiet up as quickly. It seems like this is the sensitive zone. Oil is hot, and it has all sunk down after stopping, and rpm's are not sloshing it up into upper engine. Sometimes it works out if i let it idle, but sometimes the valve train stays loud for quite a while. Then if i go for a drive, as just mentioned it will usually quiet down soon.

Recap of lump issue: Starting up cold, it's usually not there. The valve train is noisy and as just mentioned, that goes away as temp warms. But after the truck is hot, or driven, and i shut it down and leave it for a bit and then restart it, the lump seems to be there again. It can be as bad as sitting on an amusement park ride and being jostled back and forth. Or it can be subtle. But this all can be resolved with throttling a few times. But could fuel really cause a distinct lump like this?

Or, maybe the combo of weak oil distribution and also having some fuel issue can be the perfect storm to cause the engine to have a distinct sharp lump or dead-cylinder feel?

-----

Recap of Codes just pulled:
Off:
86 O / “Adaptive Fuel Limit Reached, or 3-4 shift solenoid circuit failure”
41 C / “HEGO (H02S) sensor signal out of range / always lean …. Or … No H02S switching detected

Running:
41 R / “HEGO (H02S) sensor voltage low / system lean”
13 R / “RPM at idle out of range / low”
77 R / (this one is becsuee I didn’t do WOT test”
74 R / (this one is because I didn’t do brake test)

------

Recap of work done to fuel and ignition:
Fuel:
Replaced injectors with re-man'd
Cleaned injector connectors with De-Oxit
Refurbished fuel rail
New schrader valve (had been leaky)
New fuel filter twice in two years
New fuel pump
Inspected fuel lines at pump and replaced one of them and replaced connectors to pump
New fuel regulator
Checked fuel pressures last year after work and got solid readings although would drop a little over time. Will test soon again, and am expecting some of that to be gone since injectors/gaskets are replaced
Currently tank is full, to rule out some issues with low fuel level and possible air
Ignition:
New distributor cap and rotor
New plug wires
New plugs twice in two years
New coil pack
Timing done
New and relocated TFI

I also adjusted the base idle with IAC out, and ended up unscrewing the screw out two full turns bringing base idle down to 700 ish. That hasn't really changed much though, so may bring it back up at some point. ECM still of course brings engine to 800 idle, but i was thinking maybe this adjustment would help balance air/fuel. I tested the TPS and it's fine. Base idle voltage was at very top of factory range, at 0.955 V, so bringing the screw down some seemed safe to try.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

The ECM gets RPM signal from the TFI, ignition coil, and possibly the PIP sensor in the distributor (dont quote me on the PIP)

I think all these issues are related to oiling, but vary depending on oil temp.

There is a plate i cant remember the name of (cam thrust plate maybe?) That when wore can cause excessive leakdown of oil pressure to the cam and lifters.

The lifters on the 2.9 are totally dependent on oil from the cam bearings. Worn cam bearings or worn thrust plate would cause the lifters to be starved for oil.

The valves probably are dead on a hot start because the oil has drained out of the lifters, the lifters are collapseing, and they are not actuating the valves properly,

There has been an instance or two around here of the cam lobes themselves getting worn flat and causing issue, but i think that would cause more constant issue.

I highly doubt a fuel issue is causing this at this point, and your O2 codes are probably in the wireing/ecm if youve replaced the sensor.

its up to you which avenue to pursue, but i doubt at this point fixing the O2 codes or ECM is going to make a difference.

Its either a weak oil pump or something else oiling related.

You could try draining the oil, dumping in 4qts of 10w40 (what i personally reccomend) and a qt of lucas stablizer. It would be a band aid at best but if it quiets things down and makes it run better you have your answer on if its oiling or fuel

I run lucas in mine to keep it quiet. Although mines never gotten to the point yours is.

 

[eightynine4x4]

The ECM gets RPM signal from the TFI, ignition coil, and possibly the PIP sensor in the distributor (dont quote me on the PIP)

I think all these issues are related to oiling, but vary depending on oil temp.

There is a plate i cant remember the name of (cam thrust plate maybe?) That when wore can cause excessive leakdown of oil pressure to the cam and lifters.

The lifters on the 2.9 are totally dependent on oil from the cam bearings. Worn cam bearings or worn thrust plate would cause the lifters to be starved for oil.

The valves probably are dead on a hot start because the oil has drained out of the lifters, the lifters are collapseing, and they are not actuating the valves properly,

There has been an instance or two around here of the cam lobes themselves getting worn flat and causing issue, but i think that would cause more constant issue.

I highly doubt a fuel issue is causing this at this point, and your O2 codes are probably in the wireing/ecm if youve replaced the sensor.

its up to you which avenue to pursue, but i doubt at this point fixing the O2 codes or ECM is going to make a difference.

Its either a weak oil pump or something else oiling related.

Understood, thanks!

Here’s another thought I had..
I could either increase the weight of the oil, or I could even try just overfilling it a smidge. Maybe top it off say 1/4 quart above full line. Could either heavier oil or just more oil help? Im currently running She’ll Rotella T4 15W-40. Currently it’s probably 4 ounces under the full marker.

I also did a round or two of an engine cleaner at some point two years ago and immediately had a quieter engine. I know the risk involved, but it definitely seemed to help. I could try that again. Not much to lose right now I guess.

And…. maybe I should just do an oil change and see how it turns out when fresh. I’ve not put that many miles on this batch but after a year maybe it’s collected enough gunk to warrant replacing. I did multiple rounds of oil quickly after the purge but maybe it would help to do another batch.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Understood, thanks!

Here’s another thought I had..
I could either increase the weight of the oil, or I could even try just overfilling it a smidge. Maybe top it off say 1/4 quart above full line. Could either heavier oil or just more oil help? Im currently running She’ll Rotella T4 15W-40. Currently it’s probably 4 ounces under the full marker.

I also did a round or two of an engine cleaner at some point two years ago and immediately had a quieter engine. I know the risk involved, but it definitely seemed to help. I could try that again. Not much to lose right now I guess.

And…. maybe I should just do an oil change and see how it turns out when fresh. I’ve not put that many miles on this batch but after a year maybe it’s collected enough gunk to warrant replacing. I did multiple rounds of oil quickly after the purge but maybe it would help to do another batch.

Ive had the best luck with 10w40 valvoline high mileage and lucas.

Overfilling it a 1/4-1/2 qt isnt going to make a difference either way.

 

[eightynine4x4]

Ive had the best luck with 10w40 valvoline high mileage and lucas.

Overfilling it a 1/4-1/2 qt isnt going to make a difference either way.

Is that a synthetic-only oil or do they make it in dino too?

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Is that a synthetic-only oil or do they make it in dino too?

Its a synthetic blend.

But dont use synthetic lucas.

 

[eightynine4x4]

Its a synthetic blend.

But dont use synthetic lucas.

I decided to pick up what I’m used to, the Rotella and the Motor Medic. I’m gonna do the flush and fill cycle, see how it runs after and also take new readings that it now hooked in the cab, but still consider this a temp batch of oil and will soon after go ahead and install a new oil pump and by that point maybe I’ll have some sense of sticking with Rotella or not.

As for the oil pump, the HV one on Rock is the Mellings M328. There is a drive on Rock but it says Standard. I suppose I’ll need to search for a hardened one.

What is the installation process for the drive? Is it already accessible while doing the oil pump?

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Its been a very long time since ive been that deep in an engine. But i believe it clips in to the pump and is driven by the cam gear. One end goes in the pump other into the distributor.

I did a quick search for the heavy duty drive shaft and couldnt find one. I know they were available a year ago or so.

Make sure you clean the shit out of the pickup.

 

[eightynine4x4]

Its been a very long time since ive been that deep in an engine. But i believe it clips in to the pump and is driven by the cam gear. One end goes in the pump other into the distributor.

I did a quick search for the heavy duty drive shaft and couldnt find one. I know they were available a year ago or so.

Make sure you clean the shit out of the pickup.

Ok i'll keep looking. Maybe i'll contact Melling.

I did the Motor Medic flush, and an oil change. I regret not putting in fresh oil sooner after last time though. I have it in my notes as being June 8 2022, so not even a year. And maybe 500-800 miles? But it was jet black. No particles of any sort though, just pure black oil. Not even the slightest fragment of anything, let alone any sludge. So that's good. But once i put in the fresh oil after the flush, i couldn't believe the improvement in valve train noise. The engine was so quiet that i could now hear softer sounds i'd never even heard in it before. Maybe it's due to this being the second flush. But it's also about the fresh oil.

At first the pressure was so strong that i thought that this was all just about an oil change (which would be so embarrassing), but a full warmup and a drive proved that wrong. The quiet valve train overall remained just as nice though, which is great news. But the timing following the exact same pattern, and the oil pressure dropped to the same exact levels as previous. When I held it at 2K RPMs, i got about 38 PSI when fully warmed up. And idle sat between 11-13 most of the ride while either cruising or at a stop.

But i'm mostly wondering if I should do oil changes very frequently, until it starts to run clear when drained. I'm thinking that this last batch was probably null and void sooner than I ever realized, and i should have just changed it after a couple months. This Rotella T4 15W-40 cleans the engine more aggressively than other typical oils, maybe? If so, maybe I should change it faster and then switch over to something that isn't as aggressive and won't turn jet black so fast.

I think i want to do two things now...

1, open the valve covers and clean up anything i find, while replacing the gaskets of course. Maybe some old gunk up there gets mixed with the new oil all the time, basically quickly ruining fresh batches.

2, i want to replace the oil pump with a new one. Undecided on High Volume or not.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I think you got a weak pump. I really do. Id go high volume personally.

The pressure was the same but the noise went away? Did the idle flutter and stuff?

 

[eightynine4x4]

I think you got a weak pump. I really do. Id go high volume personally.

The pressure was the same but the noise went away? Did the idle flutter and stuff?

Immediately on startup after final top off, within 5 seconds all noises went away and the general valve train was way quieter. I let it idle for quite a while, maybe 15 minutes. It was so quiet!

This drive train quality basically remained throughout the drive too, not just during first warmup.

But the ticking came back overtop of the valve train noise still, as per usual after fully warmed up. However the ticking was a lighter weight tapping sound, not such a loud clammer/knock. This came and went during the drive, as per usual. But the valve train sound under it stayed quiet.

As for the hot startups… Only tried it once but was the same deal as before. Lumpy and like a misfire. Truck wobbled pretty severely. However the sound of it wasn’t NEARLY as loud. So it seems the fresh oil was helpful, but not enough to solve the problem. I revved it a number of times and it steadied out.

As for the wandering RPMs, still happens just the same, but is noticeably milder. That includes when parked and holding throttle still at 2K and it wavering.

But yeah the oil pressure if this fresh oil, once warmed up, was exactly the same as the old oil. Wasn’t expecting this. But at first warmup, pressure at idle sat arojnd 55 for a good long while, where as the warmup idle pressure of old oil sat around 45 for a long while. So I thought it was going to stay higher than old oil overall, but it didn’t.

Part of me wants to drain the oil again and see if it’s jet black that fast.