Swapped Electric fan kit, wont turn off. Bad control module?

[RonD]

The SAE(society of automotive engineers), yes, the oil grade SAE guys, did a study back in the late 1970s/early 1980s about best engine temp for efficiency and longer engine life.....................

And that's where the 190 to 195deg thermostats came from, prior to the study pretty much everyone used 180deg and Degas setup
When coolant temp is at 190deg the engine gets better MPG and oil is warm enough to burn off contaminants better, than when coolant is at 180deg, it was an 8 or 10 year test
People ran 180deg for years and years its NOT bad, but 190deg is better, just science

Degas is when you don't fill up the radiator to the top, you leave an air gap so the coolant can expand as it warms up

Many car makers changed to an Overflow tank system instead of Degas system
With the overflow tank the radiator stays full to the top, as coolant heats up and expands rad cap opens and lets coolant flow over to the tank
Then as engine cools down coolant is sucked back into the radiator to keep it topped up, its self purging of air
And you can clearly see on the overflow tank if you are losing coolant, the cold and warm lines, and can add coolant to warm engine without opening rad cap, it will suck in the coolant from overflow tank

But there were improvements to Degas, Plastic Degas Bottles and you can see coolant level inside, so can tell if you are low on coolant, you just can't do anything about it until engine cools off, lol

 

[Eddo Rogue]

The former God fo Canada has spoken.

He was demoted.

The SAE(society of automotive engineers), yes, the oil grade SAE guys, did a study back in the late 1970s/early 1980s about best engine temp for efficiency and longer engine life.....................

And that's where the 190 to 195deg thermostats came from, prior to the study pretty much everyone used 180deg and Degas setup
When coolant temp is at 190deg the engine gets better MPG and oil is warm enough to burn off contaminants better, than when coolant is at 180deg, it was an 8 or 10 year test
People ran 180deg for years and years its NOT bad, but 190deg is better, just science

Degas is when you don't fill up the radiator to the top, you leave an air gap so the coolant can expand as it warms up

Many car makers changed to an Overflow tank system instead of Degas system
With the overflow tank the radiator stays full to the top, as coolant heats up and expands rad cap opens and lets coolant flow over to the tank
Then as engine cools down coolant is sucked back into the radiator to keep it topped up, its self purging of air
And you can clearly see on the overflow tank if you are losing coolant, the cold and warm lines, and can add coolant to warm engine without opening rad cap, it will suck in the coolant from overflow tank

But there were improvements to Degas, Plastic Degas Bottles and you can see coolant level inside, so can tell if you are low on coolant, you just can't do anything about it until engine cools off, lol

Good info, I never heard of degas system, well I sorta have but didnt know the name for it...

I read many forums and posts on thermostats and they all said the same thing...which is why I went w/ the factory 195 motorcraft. Not so much for mpgs (its a play truck) but definitely for the contaminant burn off, which seems is kind of a big deal on these engines (intake crud builds up quick etc...)

So I wonder what is the benefit of the 180? I heard it gives more power, but never noticed. But spending so much time in CA desert heat, I just took comfort in the temp gauge having more room to climb before hitting H. Now I figure if the cooling system is running properly, it shouldn't matter when it comes to extra overheat prevention.

So far the only benefit I see to the 180 radiator thermostat is it wont be fighting the temp settings of my Efan switch thermostat. If my thermostat is 195, and fan kicks on at 200 and shuts off at 180, then technically wont the two systems be fighting each other the whole time instead of being harmonious?

 

[RonD]

Air:fuel mix is a weight ratio, gasoline's ratio is 14.7:1
14.7 pounds of air to 1 pound of gasoline
14.7 grams of air to 1 gram of gasoline
(this is why 200mpg carbs and "pre-vaporizers", were/are BS)

Gasoline's weight doesn't change much with temperature, it does a little
Air's weight changes ALOT with temp, "hot air rises", why?, because its LIGHTER than cooler air
Warmer air is less dense so lighter so less gasoline can be added
Most people that live with colder winters will notice vehicle has more "pep" with colder air temps

Cold Air Intake's point is to get the coolest air into the intake so more gasoline can be added so more power on each stroke
Running a 160deg or 180deg t-stat would be for the same reason, keep intake cooler to keep air denser to add more gasoline, every little bit helps
But for a daily driver, I think MPG and engine life would be better



T-stat isn't an on/off switch, it opens a little or alot base on coolant temp that is passing it, heating or cooling it
So the t-stat establishes an equilibrium between engine temp and radiator temp
There is no "fighting"
When you are driving at 20MPH there is less air flow thru radiator than when driving at 60MPH, no fighting, t-stat may close a bit because lower rad hose is now sending in coolant thats 25deg cooler than upper hose, instead of 15deg cooler at 20MPH

A fan is the same thing, it changes air flow thru radiator for better cooling as needed, and in the case of an e-fan, usually only at lower driving speeds or when stop, or when AC is on, lol

So you set your e-fan on/off temps based on your needs/wants, there will be no "fighting", e-fan is an ON/OFF but t-stat is not

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Air:fuel mix is a weight ratio, gasoline's ratio is 14.7:1
14.7 pounds of air to 1 pound of gasoline
14.7 grams of air to 1 gram of gasoline
(this is why 200mpg carbs and "pre-vaporizers", were/are BS)

Gasoline's weight doesn't change much with temperature, it does a little
Air's weight changes ALOT with temp, "hot air rises", why?, because its LIGHTER than cooler air
Warmer air is less dense so lighter so less gasoline can be added
Most people that live with colder winters will notice vehicle has more "pep" with colder air temps

Cold Air Intake's point is to get the coolest air into the intake so more gasoline can be added so more power on each stroke
Running a 160deg or 180deg t-stat would be for the same reason, keep intake cooler to keep air denser to add more gasoline, every little bit helps
But for a daily driver, I think MPG and engine life would be better



T-stat isn't an on/off switch, it opens a little or alot base on coolant temp that is passing it, heating or cooling it
So the t-stat establishes an equilibrium between engine temp and radiator temp
There is no "fighting"
When you are driving at 20MPH there is less air flow thru radiator than when driving at 60MPH, no fighting, t-stat may close a bit because lower rad hose is now sending in coolant thats 25deg cooler than upper hose, instead of 15deg cooler at 20MPH

A fan is the same thing, it changes air flow thru radiator for better cooling as needed, and in the case of an e-fan, usually only at lower driving speeds or when stop, or when AC is on, lol

So you set your e-fan on/off temps based on your needs/wants, there will be no "fighting", e-fan is an ON/OFF but t-stat is not

Yea my high school auto shop teacher pounded the 14 to 1 ratio (and four stroke principle) into our heads...which I believe is due to Earths natural atmospheric pressure?

I heard air temp is 10:1.... for every 10 degree drop in air intake temp, you get a 1hp gain.

I remember the PAW catalogs having some kind of canister of coiled fuel line tubing that was for cooling fuel temps. Which I think could make sense for stuff drag racing, where every bit helps during fast and short runs.

I didn't realize the thermostat is supposed to vary, that makes sense now....I didn't see the thermostat as variable, but also on/off like the fan, or a valve. When engine is hot, it opens fully and stays there until cool down. But when you explain it varies to regulate temps, and that is normal, then there is no fighting (by which I meant the fan's cooling is forcing thermostat to partially close when it otherwise wouldn't). I was trying to get the fan on/off in the sweet spot of the thermostats fully open zone, which now seems not necessary, or possible lol

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

Only reason mine is 180F is it was the highest temperature rating I could get in a high flow thermostat. Mr. Gasket iirc, part number is on page 1 of my build thread.

Is a high flow necessary for cologne v6? Probably not. But, they fail to the open position when they do decide to give up the ghost, so to me it was cheap insurance.

2.9/4.0 doesn't exactly have the best reputation with heads and overheating... "fails open" thermostat seemed like a good option.

 

[sheep herder]

Only reason mine is 180F is it was the highest temperature rating I could get in a high flow thermostat. Mr. Gasket iirc, part number is on page 1 of my build thread.

Is a high flow necessary for cologne v6? Probably not. But, they fail to the open position when they do decide to give up the ghost, so to me it was cheap insurance.

2.9/4.0 doesn't exactly have the best reputation with heads and overheating... "fails open" thermostat seemed like a good option.

Fails open should be the default for all thermostats.

 

[RonD]

"fail safe" mode is the term, but that doesn't always happen, lol

1min video on how t-stat works:

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Ok guys update time....

FFD dynamics emailed back, they want to walk me thru finding the problem...I replied with my list of tests so far and why I think its bad controller, and that I plan to test the probes, which it would help if they could provide me the the hot and cold resistance numbers.

I dont think theyre gonna back the warranty, and will not use the new ones anyways knowing its junk even if they do.

I ordered a few various non adjustable sensors, and various hose adaptors, so I can try both upper and lower locations, and plumb in my aux temp gauge.

Oh yea and I hit autozone....found a decent relay, grabbed a few switches, spare lower hose, and a motorad 180 fail safe thermostat to try Dirtmans setup

so now Im stalking the postman again until the sensors and adapters show up....

 

[Eddo Rogue]

That fail safe thermostat I got from autozone turned out to be a 198...I maye run it anyways...Like PJ said a high flow is probably not necessary for the low revving cologne v6....I may run it anyways.

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Ok now onto a relay question. my HS auto teacher said a relay is a small amount of electricity used to control a large amount of electricity, which lead me to 2 questions.

1)Why did they supply 2 relays? One for the fan and another built into the controller...Do I need 2 relays for this?

2) The relay for my fan came with an 80 amp...seems overkill, will a 40 amp work? I got a nice 40 amper from the 'zone, but if I need to will order an 80 amp from the mothership and wait wait wait as usual...

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

eh. Fan can draw an impressive amount.


think of it this way.

I have a 130 amp alternator from a 3.8 on my 2.9. Motorcraft 130 amp. I swapped pulleys, and ran it. Just as a precaution, its hardwired to the rest of the electrical system through a 150 amp megafuse.

And then it blew that every time I'd push 5300k rpm.

Hm .

It now has a 175 amp.

Fan is same problem, but backwards.

High stress / load will increase amperage draw. So will adverse running, etc.

Last make sure your wiring can handle it. Non14 gage auto ants Napa mcpartstore crimp on and batch when its all green in two years crap.

No.

Don't do that.

Heat shrink bullets with no corrode. Dielectric is better than nothing.

Diy connector kit on Amazon. Buy American when you can.

 

[Eddo Rogue]

eh. Fan can draw an impressive amount.


think of it this way.

I have a 130 amp alternator from a 3.8 on my 2.9. Motorcraft 130 amp. I swapped pulleys, and ran it. Just as a precaution, its hardwired to the rest of the electrical system through a 150 amp megafuse.

And then it blew that every time I'd push 5300k rpm.

Hm .

It now has a 175 amp.

Fan is same problem, but backwards.

High stress / load will increase amperage draw. So will adverse running, etc.

Last make sure your wiring can handle it. Non14 gage auto ants Napa mcpartstore crimp on and batch when its all green in two years crap.

No.

Don't do that.

Heat shrink bullets with no corrode. Dielectric is better than nothing.

Diy connector kit on Amazon. Buy American when you can.

Holy crap! should I go bigger than 80 amps then? I am running a 130amp bosch alternator (the pulley on it was direct fit).

I'm not a fan of connectors, but do love heat shrink! Solder depends on if I need to worry about them cracking...I only use connectors if there may an occasional need to disconnect (like being able to pull my fan/rad together in one shot).

I was gonna cut and reuse the wire from the crapped controller...look like nice and beefy. Otherwise I got no problem grabbing some rolls of good stuff, if autozone/ oreillys has good wire...

I do twist and tape intially until I know it works, then wire it up proper after testing.... I figure a lil e-tape intially saves wasted connectors, solder, wire length, heat shrink, and cursing later if you gotta go back for corrections...but once circuit completes a test, I'l go back and apply connectors, solder, heat shrink, looming and zip ties....is that bad?

I will say on this fan swap, I wired it all proper nice and neat right off the bat, thinking it was fool proof...Its all pulled back apart now.

It was probably my lack of paranoia that caused the kit not to work right out of the box. It only actually works right the first time only when I don't expect it to....

 

[RonD]

Your HS teacher was correct, a little voltage(amps) to turn on and off a higher voltage(amps)
A relays on/off control draws maybe 1/2 an amp, but can control a 40amp circuit(load)

One relay is just to control the fan, its just an on and off switch, and you could control it from a toggle switch in the cab

But you want a way to automatically turn that relay on and off, so use a temp sensor, well a temp sensor isn't on/off, it is variable, high ohms to low ohms and back, depending on its temp
The controller has the OHM circuit that can translate variable OHMs to ON/OFF, the adjuster is a variable resistor that changes the OHMs for on/off

The second relay(on the controller) is just the easiest/cheapest way to make a multi input/output on/off circuit
You have the temp sensor but ALSO the AC in to activate that second relay
And they added a "light" out so you can monitor when fan is on in the cab if you want

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Your HS teacher was correct, a little voltage(amps) to turn on and off a higher voltage(amps)
A relays on/off control draws maybe 1/2 an amp, but can control a 40amp circuit(load)

One relay is just to control the fan, its just an on and off switch, and you could control it from a toggle switch in the cab

But you want a way to automatically turn that relay on and off, so use a temp sensor, well a temp sensor isn't on/off, it is variable, high ohms to low ohms and back, depending on its temp
The controller has the OHM circuit that can translate variable OHMs to ON/OFF, the adjuster is a variable resistor that changes the OHMs for on/off

The second relay(on the controller) is just the easiest/cheapest way to make a multi input/output on/off circuit
You have the temp sensor but ALSO the AC in to activate that second relay
And they added a "light" out so you ca monitor when fan is on in the cab if you want

I thought the fan drew major amps, which is why it would be relayed.

If not, whats the different between a switch and relay,if they are rated for the same amps and used on a single circuit?

Like for example could I wire a light bar directly to a switch along some inline fuses?

Is the 2nd relay so I can have both a sensor triggered and ac triggered switch?

Im definitely gonna go non adjustable sensor, and would like to eliminate a relay.

Also I plan to wire up some off road lights while at this, and have been thinking if I need to relay that or not?

Good stuff Ron, appreciate ya

 

[RonD]

No difference IF the toggle switch is rated for the same AMPs at 12volts

But one other benefit of a relay is that the larger wires needed to supply 40amps, at 12volts, can be shorter, and you only need the 3 larger wires
Ground, from battery to fan motor
12V positive from battery to relay
Relay to fan motor

The relay on/off control wires can be much smaller, only need to pass .5 amp


In most cars/trucks relays are control by Grounding
This is because its easier, cheaper, and safer
The relays will have to have 12v to supply power to the device they control
You then just need to jump that 12v to pin 86 on the relay
So now when you Ground pin 85 the relay will activate

So you just need 1 smaller wire to a switch in the cab, the switch can be grounded IN the cab, so just 1 wire is needed thru firewall to the relay, easier and cheaper
The safer part is because of the possibility of a wire shorting, the longest wire has the most potential to short, and its a GROUND wire, if it shorts all that happens is that the relay and its device actives..............no blown fuse, no melted wires, so safer


The controller is so you can activate the Fan Relay
They used a standard automotive relay on the controller because its cheaper and easier to replace than a circuit board activated relay
But the "controller" can be made as all one circuit board, and still have the AC IN and Light Out, with a mini-relay on the circuit board
As said above the Temp Sensor can't switch Fan Relay on/off, it doesn't have that electrical circuit, its just variable OHM/resistance device
You still need a circuit that "reads" OHMS and can be setup to toggle on/off at specific OHMs

I think you can buy temp sensors that have preset on/off, but they would be screw in type and as said preset temps not adjustable
Like the oil pressure switch that Rangers use, but for temp instead of pressure