Emergency boiler help

[James Morse]

Old American Standard boiler / radiators. I did some work on it about 12 yrs ago, it's been fine.
Today out of the blue started making noise that sounded like somebody grading gravel outside, loud, could hear it all over the house.
I know this - circulating pump motor runs, but, I can see broken pieces where the motor connects to the impeller. So that's definitely not right. I can get the motor to run by setting the out-thermostat low, residual heat kicks on the motor but you don't hear water circulating - that makes a little more noise than just the motor running.
So I know for sure if water doesn't circulate you won't have heat. Couple questions.
1. What and how hard to replace parts for the pump?
2. What would cause the -horrible- noise? Maybe impeller seizing up or something? It was really bad. I gotta think it was the impeller seizing or the parts breaking.
3. If I take pump motor off will I be able to tell if impeller is seized, and if so then should be able to get generic part to fit I hope? Probably have to drain stuff first or water will be going all over.

If I call 'the experts' I know they will say you need new boiler, and I want to keep the old one going, as long as the burner tubes and manifold inside are ok you can replace all the other parts. My experience calling guys is it's about always a ripoff plue 'emergency' charge to come right away. Any idea what they'd charge to fix this? Maybe impeller is ok and it's the ass'y that hooks motor to pump that's shot. Can't get good pic of it but I guarantee you there are broken pieces in there, looks like a collar to a shaft (broken in half) and some springs. Out-thermostat says it has I guess some safety thing for 'impeller seized - 48V') but it wouldn't know if it's seized or not since it's not connected to the motor.

Sorry for some of this maybe a little disjointed I'm kinda concerned, gotta have heat. Not that cold today but it's coming in next couple days so this has to be fixed, like, now, and I got a feeling it's going to mean calling someone and a lot of bucks. Thanks for any help you can give me.

I suppose I can run it with no pump and get a little heat just from natural circulation but that sure ain't the way to go. I suppose there could be other things, but seems like I should start by having a working pump. Water leaks a little in the temp gauge face (just a gauge, not a thermostat) on the front of the boiler, I've replaced it at least once, yeah it should be replaced, but I'd say that has nothing to do with things right now.

 

[ericbphoto]

You need to fix the pump. You're not going to heat the house without it. It sounds like you're describing the "coupling" being broken. The coupli g connects the motor to the pump Impeller. Turn power off and disconnect the motor completely from the pump. Then you should be able to rotate the Impeller by hand and determine if
A. It's fine. Just need new coupling
B. It's seized. (Doubtful)
C. It has bad bearings. Will feel rough and maybe wobbly as you rotate it.

There is a 4th choice and that is the Impeller is eroded and not pumping efficiently. That would cause cavitation which can sound like gravel in the system.

If you're not comfortable Making this evaluation, call somebody. Your skepticism that all contractors are going to tell you to replace the boiler is not helping you. Find a reputable company and get help. When is the last time any preventative maintenance has been performed on the system by a qualified technician? 12 years or more? That's about 15 years too long. Boiler systems are relatively simple. But they must be properly maintained. Pump impellers erode, scale builds up inside the boiler and reduces heat transfer efficiency, sediment builds up in the boiler and low points in the piping system, etc. If you want heat, don't screw around. Get it done right. If it ends up costing a bunch of money, thats because you didn't spend smaller amounts of money over the years on proper maintenance.

 

[RonD]

There will be shut off valves for the "zones" and should be for the circulating pump as well
Or at least boiler/pump shut off valves so you only need to drain boiler and pump pipes

I just did my 35 year old boiler last year
2 new zone valves and new circulating pump

Turn off the system(breaker) so it can cool down, remember to turn off the fresh water valve
Close all the valves you can see, lol
Open the drain valve
Mine has an "air trap" unit on the top of the boiler, I removed that so air could flow in to drain the boiler better/faster
Shut off breaker for circulating pump
Disconnect pumps 120vAC wires
Remove pump
Install new pump
Close drain

You can add some Hot Water heat treatment via the Air trap hole at this time, prevents organic growth and scaling in the hot water

Open fresh water valve and refill until water comes out the air trap hole, reinstall air trap, or a new one, they were not expensive, and mine was very old, lol
Then open fresh water valve again
Start opening all the other valves
When they are all open turn on breaker and boiler

 

[James Morse]

Yep coupler ass'y broken. On me that I didn't regularly lube it at oil point but that's water over the dam.
Just had a bad experience with Ostrom they charged 350 to clear a drain (p-trap) for the washer and took all of 10 minutes so that I call a rip off but I wanted it done right away so I agreed to it. Southern States I had good luck with on an a/c outside unit replaced motor and cleaned it well, so I called them. Supposed to come tonight, if they have the parts they should be able to get it going otherwise I guess between small elec heater and gas oven and kero heaters we'll get thru the night. With ventilation. Vicky says could stay at hotel for extra cost of emergency service but I was like let's just get on it right away this has to be done.
Thanks for all the help. I don't have zones or shutoff valve for pump so -if- impeller has to be replaced just have to drain it I guess.
Coupler ass'y part is cheap, impellers and other parts super expensive it looks like but what are you gonna do. Hoping for the best.... will let you know.
I imagine I could do it but also don't want to get half into it and have a problem then have to call them anyway.
Total motor & pump all together like $2k I couldn't believe it. Coupler is like $50 so hoping it's only that if I'm lucky.

 

[James Morse]

Would have been nice if this was in fall or something. Reminds me of funny South Park vid where all the computer guys were jobless and the fix-it guys were riding in limos because "nobody knows how to fix stuff any more". Just like working on the Rangers if you can do it yourself lots of times the parts just aren't that much but labor for somebody else is a killer.
Still waiting on the guy, considered asking if he has the coupler at least otherwise might as well come tomorrow... hard to know what to do but staying the course I'm on for now. Chances are if/when he does it I'll say to myself 'hell I coulda done that' but there's some worth to me to not having to explain to Vicky this is where I am with it this is why it's not done... etc... you know what I mean probably.

 

[bobbywalter]

love joy...... has a whole new meaning with these things.

 

[James Morse]

are you talking about the band Lovejoy? Sorry I'm confused.

 

[James Morse]

Playing 'if' game - if coupler and impeller are both bad at some point it's probably better/easier/cheaper to just put the whole unit in, I don't know what I'm dealing with yet... but wondering, if I end up with a good pump, then have to replace boiler later can I still use the pump? Or are all the new ones having the circulator pump integral to the unit.
Rather keep this boiler going if I can of course. If manifold inside doesn't leak rest of stuff is replaceable. I think.

 

[ericbphoto]

are you talking about the band Lovejoy? Sorry I'm confused.

Lovejoy is a brand name that is used universally for a particular style of coupling. Very simple and reliable 3 piece design. Though I have seen a lot of small boiler pumps use a spring type coupling made popular by Bell & Gossett.

Bell & Gossett style

 

[bobbywalter]

what eric said.

 

[James Morse]

Ah. Yes diff type of coupler. The one in there was plastic, they break (metal ones too) it's nothing to do w/ maintenance they just break. The springs are so if the impeller does seize, they break so the motor doesn't burn out.
Guy never came last night which was ok. A guy came early this AM, experienced, he went right at it, replaced coupler w/ Bell/Gossett part. Older experienced guy. Impeller was fine he said 'like new'. Waited to heat it back up end ensure it works right. 2 yrs warranty parts/labor on it, doubt it would break in that time, but nice to know.
Part is about $50. Quote - you know - book price - for the work was 464, I said seems high, he called and got 50 off of it. He spent probably a couple hours anyway on it, had to go get the part, a few skinned knuckles. Said everything I was doing as to t-stat settings and cleaning it etc was correct. I asked him should I worry about deposits in pipes he said no. Anyway all in all it was 414, that's what he has to give the company. I gave him 500 cash so he got a decent tip out of it but, I didn't get charged the emergency 139 I would have been charged last night, and he got the price down a little so 85 in tip is decent and he said if I need anything ask for him. I like it when the older experienced guys know exactly what they are doing. And you know he himself doesn't get but a part of it the company probably gets most, for their staff, trucks, etc etc. He says, per others, as long as the heat exchanger doesn't leak all other parts are replaceable. Well, except the flue collector, had to have that made up at metal shop a few years ago but it's nice and rugged should last. Vicky and I split the cost on this stuff so if you asked me would you do it for half the cost (about 200 not including the tip) I'd probably say no. You have to fit the coupler on the pump side first then but in the motor then tighten it up. Do-able certainly but I probably would have struggled a bit with it. Anyway, bottom line, heat's working, I'm happy with it, and considering costs of things today I don't see it as exorbitant. If it'd been the impeller it would have been way worse, so you were right about that, the impeller was fine.
I have to believe those Lovejoy are made to break in case of locked impeller or else the out-t-stat sees it locked and cuts current, it says on latter 48V impeller seized. Whatever that means.
Thanks!!

 

[ericbphoto]

The couplings, Lovejoy or others are not generally "made to break". If the Impeller were to seizez, the motor current would rise and trip an overload device, fuse or breaker. The purpose of these couplings is to provide an easy way to couple the motor shaft to the pump shaft and allow for slight misalignment between the 2. That way you don't need a super precision alignment, which costs more money. The springs or rubber spider part also help reduce vibrations from being transmitted between the pump and motor. Just due to their design and nature, it is normal for the coupling to eventually wear out. That's just part of life. Nothing lasts forever, except plastic containers floating in the ocean.

Glad you're up and running.

 

[James Morse]

Ah, thanks. Yes, about the circuit breakers, also, I'm thinking maybe that overload safety is in the t-stat for the water outflow (the one that activates the pump), I think I mentioned it says on it 120V which you would expect and it also says '48V - Impeller seized' so although I don't understand how the 48V comes into it, that seems like it's telling you it takes into account the possibility of impeller seized.
Anyway glad you cleared that up about the springs I see what you mean, that's not the safety device for impeller seized it's for different reasons. However about them breaking, yeah, eventually I suppose that's to be expected. The old one on there was a spring-type but only the crossbar and springs were metal the four arms were plastic (cast in the B-G replacement per your lower pic in your previous post this thread.
Yup nice to have heat! I wasn't very penny pinching on it but it was just so nice to see it working right I was feeling generous.
With stuff working per normal as usual the radiators keep the temp really constant, it keeps it right where you set it.

 

[franklin2]

Don't use a Lovejoy coupler on these applications, been there, done that. That Bell and Gosset is a poor design, but it's all they used for years. I finally found a new fangled re-designed coupler. They are not cheap, but they work great. Here is a link to one.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Wal-rich-1751030-Spring-Coupler-for-BG-100-Booster-Pumps?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA7t6sBhAiEiwAsaieYir-sS0JcyNPWLlDFwrX0_jI6cs2003P_2Z6rpca2WSTK0iYmiMV3RoCdcIQAvD_BwE

I had a problem pump, did all the right things to fix it, still could not get a season out of the standard coupler. So I had the same idea and bought a Lovejoy. It worked, but you could here the pump through the whole building it vibrated the pipes so bad. That coupler in the link above has been in there 3 years now, no problems.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

$10 sounds cheap to me....