Carb? EFI? What to choose.

[baddad457]

It means I can compose a response without having to think about it and come back and change or add to what I said.

Check the title again blabber mouth. Funny, I don't see "VS" in it anywhere.

Ok, so "VS" isn't there but if you'll READ the title, it implies that this was meant to be a debate. Nothing wrong with editing a post either,I guess it takes you longer to comprehend things before you speak. If that's the best you can come back with, you need to just go off to your corner and sulk to yourself.

 

[BigBlockRanger]

I guess it takes you longer to comprehend things before you speak.

Uhh.... again, I'm not the one that had to go back and edit my responses.

No sulking here. I see your banter as being no different that that of namby-pamby 3rd grader on the playground. I have said what I wanted in post #48. No need to continue this further because I seriously doubt you could ever get the best of me intellectually.

Now, back to my coffee....

 

[Will]

Fuel injection does the same exact thing a carb does....it gets fuel and air in the proper mix into the cylinder.

It just is 100X more complicated then it needs to be.

later,
Dustin

You want complicated?

You want simple?

Get THIS BOOK and learn about EEC and you'll have a leg to stand on. I thoroughly understand both.

A basic carb would be air rushing by a hole and the low pressure across the mouth of that hole draws fuel into the stream of passing air. The other 400 parts on the carb I showed above are patches to try to get the method to work well. There are multiple patches to try and make the transition from idle to full power; patches to keep the engine from suddnely shutting off if the throttle is released; patches to crudely enrich the mixture so it will start and then run while cold; patces to crudely enrich the mixture so you can stomp the pedal to the floor without it going lean and blowing the aircleaner off. There are patches to keep the fuel from sloshing away from the jets on corners and bumps and hills; patches to increase the airspeed at low rpms so it will actually draw fuel, while then trying to slow it back down at high rpms so the airstream will not go turbulent and stop metering altogether. There are patches on top of patches on top of patches on top of patches.

EFI is clean and simple. Solid state components that are so reliable you don't even know they exist. Electromagentic components just as reliable. There's about a dozen wires connecting it all together. It adjusts for differnet weather, altitudes and even fuel characteristics--something a carb can't do with even another 100 patches on it. It doesn't stall on hills, it does a way better job of atomizing the fuel--you don't have to go artifically rich because its sprayed right at the port, not released into the airstream a foot and 2 90-degree angles up stream.

A carb is a piece of shit.

That said, it is easy to get your engine running by buying one and throwing it on. I won't deny that. But it's not a route I would take if you are running an engine that Ford made an EFI system for. You would probably get all the parts you need for $50 to set up an EFI. Used EFI components are 1000% more reliable than used carbs. You have to be on the ball to know if you even have all the parts to a carb you buy used. Unless it's an 1850 Holley or a universal AFB, it might not be possible to find the documentation to see if it's all there. That goes for rebuilt ones from Autozone as well.

Speaking of Autozone and carbs. Most people's carbs fail (or they think they fail) so they go to Autozone, the schmuck behind the counter gives them a rebuild and they go slap it on. The core, which has already been through the caustic tank 4,000 times, makes another trip to Mexico and it's 4,001. The orifices and passages in the aluminum or magnesium body get a little bit bigger, reducing the velocity of the shot or the velocity of the ported air or the velocity of the fuel. Some of these carbs are way shot and never seem to work very well even if they were assembled correctly.

If you get a carb, get an AFB type new--they are better than a Holley out of the box and less prone to leak. But I would get the book I linked to up there, read about EFI and then find the used parts to put together a good fuel system.

 

[baddad457]

Uhh.... again, I'm not the one that had to go back and edit my responses.

No sulking here. I see your banter as being no different that that of namby-pamby 3rd grader on the playground. I have said what I wanted in post #48. No need to continue this further because I seriously doubt you could ever get the best of me intellectually.

Now, back to my coffee....

That's the BEST you can come back with ????? I edited my posts??? How ANAL can anyone get ???? The only third grader here is you. You are the one, who in failing to come up with anything relevent, had to resort to name calling.................... that my friend is what third graders do.

You're about as intellectual as a fence post. I've had better conversations with a tree.

 

[baddad457]

You want complicated?

You want simple?

Get THIS BOOK and learn about EEC and you'll have a leg to stand on. I thoroughly understand both.

A basic carb would be air rushing by a hole and the low pressure across the mouth of that hole draws fuel into the stream of passing air. The other 400 parts on the carb I showed above are patches to try to get the method to work well. There are multiple patches to try and make the transition from idle to full power; patches to keep the engine from suddnely shutting off if the throttle is released; patches to crudely enrich the mixture so it will start and then run while cold; patces to crudely enrich the mixture so you can stomp the pedal to the floor without it going lean and blowing the aircleaner off. There are patches to keep the fuel from sloshing away from the jets on corners and bumps and hills; patches to increase the airspeed at low rpms so it will actually draw fuel, while then trying to slow it back down at high rpms so the airstream will not go turbulent and stop metering altogether. There are patches on top of patches on top of patches on top of patches.

EFI is clean and simple. Solid state components that are so reliable you don't even know they exist. Electromagentic components just as reliable. There's about a dozen wires connecting it all together. It adjusts for differnet weather, altitudes and even fuel characteristics--something a carb can't do with even another 100 patches on it. It doesn't stall on hills, it does a way better job of atomizing the fuel--you don't have to go artifically rich because its sprayed right at the port, not released into the airstream a foot and 2 90-degree angles up stream.

A carb is a piece of shit.

That said, it is easy to get your engine running by buying one and throwing it on. I won't deny that. But it's not a route I would take if you are running an engine that Ford made an EFI system for. You would probably get all the parts you need for $50 to set up an EFI. Used EFI components are 1000% more reliable than used carbs. You have to be on the ball to know if you even have all the parts to a carb you buy used. Unless it's an 1850 Holley or a universal AFB, it might not be possible to find the documentation to see if it's all there. That goes for rebuilt ones from Autozone as well.

Speaking of Autozone and carbs. Most people's carbs fail (or they think they fail) so they go to Autozone, the schmuck behind the counter gives them a rebuild and they go slap it on. The core, which has already been through the caustic tank 4,000 times, makes another trip to Mexico and it's 4,001. The orifices and passages in the aluminum or magnesium body get a little bit bigger, reducing the velocity of the shot or the velocity of the ported air or the velocity of the fuel. Some of these carbs are way shot and never seem to work very well even if they were assembled correctly.

If you get a carb, get an AFB type new--they are better than a Holley out of the box and less prone to leak. But I would get the book I linked to up there, read about EFI and then find the used parts to put together a good fuel system.

Only thing I see wrong with your post is your choice of a GM carb. The Quadra-jet is probably THE most complicated carb ever made. No one I know will use or want one. Why not post a diagram of one of the simplest, and many think. the most reliable carb made---- Ford's 2100/4100 series. Holley's are almost as simple & just as reliable. Once you have properly tuned a carb-------LEAVE IT ALONE. If there's a problem, it's almost always something other than the carb causing it. You also left off all the wiring that goes with the EFI system. And the circuit boards and other parts inside the ECM, those are all parts too, parts that can and do fail. And don't forget the wiring connections------get that wrong and the system is far from reliable. One little glitch disables the whole thing. EFI doesn't stall on hills ? I wish you had been with me a few years back when my 95 E150 did. Vapor Locked, coming up out of Boulder Canyon just outside of Las Vegas. Sure, the parts are reliable, but when they do fail, they can be a bitch to diagnose. The only situation an EFI system shines over a carb is in drastic altitude changes. Weather changes ? No. People who try that are needlessly screwing with something they're never going to be satisfied with anyway. You repeatedly speak of "patches" in the carb for different operating circumstances, you forget that the ECM handles that function, and someone had to program that to start with. Same thing really, somebody had to come up with a "patch" in the computer program to take care of a certain operating circumstance. Both perform the same function, only one sprays the fuel, the other relies on the engine's airflow to draw the fuel. One can be as reliable as the other if you take the time to learn each.

 

[BigBlockRanger]

That's the BEST you can come back with ????? I edited my posts??? How ANAL can anyone get ???? The only third grader here is you. You are the one, who in failing to come up with anything relevent, had to resort to name calling.................... that my friend is what third graders do.

You're about as intellectual as a fence post. I've had better conversations with a tree.

I really just keep replying just to see how big of an ass you will make of yourself. So far, you're doing a great job. Keep it up. The more you post, the better we see what kind of person you truly are.

Now, maybe you should stop talking to me and go have a debate with a tree.

[Anxiously awaiting your sub-intelligent response...]

 

[Mac]

Why don't you two take it some where else, this thread is going no where! One of you grow up and just drop it, no one is going to win. It's the rest of us that are the losers.
Dave

 

[281Ranger]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I just wanted to point something out.

None of my carbs need adjustments with seasonal changes.

Baddad,
I can understand why you say your carbs always stay in tune, where you live (La.) the temps stay fairly warm year round. The starter of this thread, Iron Ranger, lives in Minnesota (I'm guessing northern MN by his name). Here the temps range from 100+ in the summer to -30 and colder in the winter. Sure a carb will work here all year without a tune, just not well. EFI, on the other hand, adjusts for these changes.

 

[red85]

Come on guys. Back into your corners LOL. EFI or carb? Use whatever you can A: afford, B: figure out without too much difficulty and C: will suit your application best. If you're running a trail crawler that spends much of the time on steep angles, then make sure you can continuously fuel your engine. If it's a dragstrip terror then get something that will supply a bucket load of fuel when you mash the gas. Choice is yours. Just by doing a little research you'll find what's best for you. Personally I like when people ask about this stuff, because it usually puts a new idea in my head.

Phil

 

[baddad457]

I really just keep replying just to see how big of an ass you will make of yourself. So far, you're doing a great job. Keep it up. The more you post, the better we see what kind of person you truly are.

Now, maybe you should stop talking to me and go have a debate with a tree.

[Anxiously awaiting your sub-intelligent response...]

You just keep replying with meaningless comebacks don't you. What's wrong, you can't do any better ? Or maybe I should edit this to give you something to talk about ?

 

[baddad457]

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, I just wanted to point something out.



Baddad,
I can understand why you say your carbs always stay in tune, where you live (La.) the temps stay fairly warm year round. The starter of this thread, Iron Ranger, lives in Minnesota (I'm guessing northern MN by his name). Here the temps range from 100+ in the summer to -30 and colder in the winter. Sure a carb will work here all year without a tune, just not well. EFI, on the other hand, adjusts for these changes.

Temps here range from 100 to 20* above 0. Still no changes needed. 30 below, I'd have to make one change-------install a choke. I completely remove them otherwise they're nothing but a problem that you don't need here.

 

[red85]

You want complicated?

Jeez Loiuse! I thought my shotgun manual made stuff look complicated

 

[Will]

You can't vaper lock an EFI. It's a LOOP with an electric pump.

The reason I posted the Quadrajet is because it's the last carburater standing in the US--used on HD Chevy pickups until 1988 in the 7.4 liter. It was the only one that could be cobbled together enough to meet emissions that late.

Do you know why cars get poor emissions? Because they are running poorly somewhere in their rpm range. There is no linear device on them. They have a series of 3-6 steps of changes in devices participating in metering fuel, and each of those devices has a single airflow measurment where it works well. It's like a digital image with 100 pixels compared an EFI having 100 megapixels. The Quadrajet was the best of them, that's why I used it. Any carb has more components than an EFI though. An EFI adjusts to circumstances--it's in no way a series of patch jobs. Yes, it's programmed. Yes someone programmed it. Yes, a real computer ike the one you are typing on is inside that box in the kick panel.

Show me a carb with 12 parts and you'll be showing me a plastic Briggs carb.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

The good thing about a carb is though....

When it fails....4 bolts and you can have a new one.

When EFI fails....you cant replace the whole system with a new one.

later,
Dustin

 

[BigBlockRanger]

The good thing about a carb is though....

When it fails....4 bolts and you can have a new one.

When EFI fails....you cant replace the whole system with a new one.

later,
Dustin

Nor would you need to. Just replace the faulty component, turn the key and go.

When I pulled the 2.9L out of my '86, I added 2 injector plugs, I literally plugged in an '88 F-150 Speed Density computer to the existing harness and was 99% done with the wiring. A couple of wires needed to be lengthened here an there due to the physical size difference of the 2.9 and 5.0, but that was it. In fact, I would say it was really easier than installing a carb because there was no tuning required whatsoever. Turn key, motor runs. Simple.

Was it cheap? Engine was already set up for EFI, so it cost me a whopping $45 for a used the ECM and I already had a couple injector connectors laying around.

Did it run good? Engine was an E6 headed, HO cammed, 5.0L, which was basically a stock 86 HO spec motor, and it ran like it. It ran 15.2's at out local track that is at 3600' MSL, which is on par with LT1 Camaros/Firebirds around here.

The really cool thing now is that if you want to upgrade the ECM, there is an EEC-IV to Megasquirt adapter board available, that allows you to plug the MS directly into you existing harness. The MS kit is $140 or so and the adapter board is around $40 or so. This is actually the route I have taken with the 545. I kept the majority of the stock 2.9L harness and have the adapter board plugged into harness and the MS.

To each his own I suppose, but it really seems like guys blow the complexity and cost of EFI out of proportion.