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Who wants to explain to me?


AllanD didn't nail it and the north wasn't treating the south in the manner you indicate. The industrial revolution was still a good way off--several decades--and most northern boys were farmers, just like the southern boys. It was Abraham Lincoln's idealistic view of preserving the union that drove the entire thing. Without this ugly, charasmatic man that stood physically a foot taller than everyone else, there would have been 2 countries. And it's entirely possible they would have rejoined again at some point.

Just because the Gettysburg address was belated doesn't mean it was irrelevant. Who can know what drives someone. Over-analyzing things is academic--there are things that you can devlope good theories for but then forget that your theories are wrong because you can't know what is driving a man as much as Abraham Lincoln was driven. He was a master orator when microphones and things didn't exist. he also didn't have the face time with people that we have now with televisons and such. People in the north voted to stay in the war by re-electing him. They were not swayed by his cool hair--they were swayed by their own gut feelings.

Without us being one country, I doubt we would have been effective in the last minutes of WW1 or throughout the 20th century. We may not have perfect individual rights, but without us being unified, we might not have any. WW1 had nothing to do with us at the start, and neither did WW2. Could half or 2/3 of the USA have been strong enough to build Russian equipment while they moved their industry over the Urals? Could 2/3 of us have fielded the 110 aircraft carriers we had at the end of WW2? The south, if independent would have been like Ireland during WW2. A neutral, noncommital pain in the ass because of their fear of the north's intent.

I don't know what the world would be like without Lincoln as the 16th president but it would be hard to paint a scenario where it's better. The implications are far reaching. For instance, without the united states, would all of the immigration have taken place? I doubt it. Some certainly, but not all. With immigration, we have more people of many nationalities living here than actually live in their own countries. Without immigration to fill up this place it would cost you $100 to find someone to walk your dog, let alone man the arsenal of democracy.
 
Since were setting the record straight, we need to clarify this. Young Palestinian men have been taught that the Jews stole their opportunity, but that's nothing but Arab propaganda.

So the Palestinians continue to live in squalor, by the hand of their Arab and Persian brothers, not because of Israel.

Right, those are the old men sewing the flags that I mentioned.
 
An idiots summery by Chance:

Civil war = fought over money

Southerners = Pissed about taxes and tarriffs on exported goods (sending all cotton to english textile mills instead of the northern textile mills)

Northerners = Pissed about business being stolen away by the british (not getting the southern cotton so that the north may send textile product over to england to make money, basically the North was a middleman in the "getting clothes to england" scheme)

At least that's what I got from it/remember from history

The abolition of slavery was a side affect.

But money makes the world go round. And taxes piss people off.

And start wars.
 
AllanD didn't nail it and the north wasn't treating the south in the manner you indicate. The industrial revolution was still a good way off--several decades--and most northern boys were farmers, just like the southern boys. It was Abraham Lincoln's idealistic view of preserving the union that drove the entire thing. Without this ugly, charasmatic man that stood physically a foot taller than everyone else, there would have been 2 countries. And it's entirely possible they would have rejoined again at some point.

Just because the Gettysburg address was belated doesn't mean it was irrelevant. Who can know what drives someone. Over-analyzing things is academic--there are things that you can devlope good theories for but then forget that your theories are wrong because you can't know what is driving a man as much as Abraham Lincoln was driven. He was a master orator when microphones and things didn't exist. he also didn't have the face time with people that we have now with televisons and such. People in the north voted to stay in the war by re-electing him. They were not swayed by his cool hair--they were swayed by their own gut feelings.

Without us being one country, I doubt we would have been effective in the last minutes of WW1 or throughout the 20th century. We may not have perfect individual rights, but without us being unified, we might not have any. WW1 had nothing to do with us at the start, and neither did WW2. Could half or 2/3 of the USA have been strong enough to build Russian equipment while they moved their industry over the Urals? Could 2/3 of us have fielded the 110 aircraft carriers we had at the end of WW2? The south, if independent would have been like Ireland during WW2. A neutral, noncommital pain in the ass because of their fear of the north's intent.

I don't know what the world would be like without Lincoln as the 16th president but it would be hard to paint a scenario where it's better. The implications are far reaching. For instance, without the united states, would all of the immigration have taken place? I doubt it. Some certainly, but not all. With immigration, we have more people of many nationalities living here than actually live in their own countries. Without immigration to fill up this place it would cost you $100 to find someone to walk your dog, let alone man the arsenal of democracy.

I said nothing about the Gettysburg adress (a speech over a cemetery)

I mentioned the Emancipation proclamation, which is in essence an executive order which had NO standing in law.

It in essence deprived people of their property without due process.
the fact that the slaves were the property being discussed is immaterial

Wanna talk about constitutional violations?
Lincoln easily beats every other president combined.

Charasmatic leaders are DANGEROUS,
Charasmatic idealists are even worse
That's why the current asshole has ALWAYS made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
The fact that he's also a malagnant narcissist only makes him more frightening..

Since were setting the record straight, we need to clarify this. Young Palestinian men have been taught that the Jews stole their opportunity, but that's nothing but Arab propaganda.

The Palestinians have been used as a tool by the Arabs against the Jews since Israel was formed.

It is a complete lie to say that the Jews took their land or opportunity.

The land did not belong to those who are today known as Palestinians.

Moreover, it was a wasteland where virtually nothing lived until the Jews took over and made it a green oasis.

The Jews give more money to the Palestinians than all Arab countries combined. They built a real economy that gives Palestinians opportunity that they would never have in any Arab country, if they will only quit killing innocent women and children.

During the Clinton Admin, Israel offered Arafat everything that he wanted, including a Palestinian State, but the old butcher just looked at the paper, wadded it up, and threw it in their faces because he knew that his Persian masters would never let him live if he signed the peace.

So the Palestinians continue to live in squalor, by the hand of their Arab and Persian brothers, not because of Israel.

The one actual "work of man" you CAN see from orbit is the border between Israel
and any country that borders it.

How? Israel is GREEN. anything outside Israel isn't.

That was NOT the case in 1947.

The Israeli's have MADE it green.

The palestinians had centuries to do so and didn't.

Nuff said.


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The one actual "work of man" you CAN see from orbit is the border between Israel and any country that borders it.

And the great wall of China.:icon_thumby:

On a slightly different note, I just got through reading a book which was partly about what happened to the slaves after abolition. Many of them turned to sharecropping which was essentially the same or worse than slavery. They bought seeds from "The Man" bought clothes and supplies from "The Man" all of which were on credit. Then they often couldn't make enough profits on their percentage of the crops they harvested so they were perpetually indebted to "The Man" and could never leave the property. Still sounded like slavery to me.
 
On a slightly different note, I just got through reading a book which was partly about what happened to the slaves after abolition. Many of them turned to sharecropping which was essentially the same or worse than slavery.

Freed slaves didn't have much choice other than to turn to sharecropping. They ended up back on the land they had worked on as slaves because they had nowhere else to go.
 
"An idiots summery by Chance:

Civil war = fought over money

Southerners = Pissed about taxes and tarriffs on exported goods (sending all cotton to english textile mills instead of the northern textile mills)

Northerners = Pissed about business being stolen away by the british (not getting the southern cotton so that the north may send textile product over to england to make money, basically the North was a middleman in the "getting clothes to england" scheme."


I've heard this before and I believe it to be true. I don't believe the average northern soldier was that much more different than the average southern soldier was. The Emancipation proclamation was signed to free the slaves so the north had more fodder for the cannon.
 
WOW! This thing is all over the place.

First off, the states "Seceded", the reason why was because the Federal Government was imposing themselves on States Constitutional Rights. Slavery was prevalent in all States, not just the South.

What Lincoln should have done was grant citizenship to all the Slaves. That would protect them under the bill of rights and all this "Civil Rights" stuff would be moot.

A Civil Right is granted by a Government, an Inalienable Right is granted by the creator (whoever you wish that to be), or by a person's mere existence.

The Confederacy was a set of States that seceded from the Union due to the Federal Governments over stepping it's bounds. That is what sparked the Civil War. The Rebel or Confederate Flag represents a free people resisting the tyranny of the Federal Government. Unfortunately, it's as applicable today as it was in the mid 1800s.
 
Most people fly the flag because they believe the south should of won the war and slaves should not be free and still stand for the old ways, don't matter what state they live in ..
 
I hope you've enjoyed my utterly factual comments on the civil war
and try not to step in the tsunami of Cynicism I let loose...



AD
I scanned this thread the first time, I'm glad I went back and read the posts. You are spot on man. Thanks for the well reasoned and informed explanation, I wish I could express myself so eloquently. Many people have no idea what the Civil War was about, and the results of said war. It completely changed the foundation of this country.
 
Most people fly the flag because they believe the south should of won the war and slaves should not be free and still stand for the old ways, don't matter what state they live in ..
Absolutely the most uninformed and ignorant post in this thread to date.
 
i dont feel like reading the whole thread...i had enough of that in US history Class...


RAISING HELL AND HAVING FUN FTW!!! :icon_hornsup:

confederate_flag.gif
 

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