Symmetric vs asymmetric tread

[James Morse]

@Josh B yes it's the same tire, and I like the tire, but rotating the picture, which is all you can do with a tire, doesn't change it. Not sure what you're using, but "flip" in photo edit creates a mirror image (what you did), something you can't do with an actual tire short of making 2 sets of molds and making 2 different tires. For confirmation, you can take a slip of paper and make it a circle, or cut a length of paper towel core, and draw the diagonal lines across it. You can turn it any which way you want, but it won't change. I know it seems counterintuitive, but try it and you'll see. Seriously.

@pjtoledo Thanks for giving me the formula!

@ericbphoto It is about the same here usually just a few snows I am somewhat north of you. What was the main factor in going to the bigger diameter, height? I assume you had to lift the truck.

@Blmpkn Yes that's the issue, turns out there are symmetric tires, either directional or non-directional, just not in a/t, you'd have to go to mudders. Probably not a good choice for me. I can't say for sure since I haven't been these places, lacking 4x4 previously, but I think mostly roads are going up in elevation which would imply drier not wetter. It's true you can run into soft/muddy spots, but I think you see this mostly when you have to pull off the road to let someone by and it's mucky there. But mostly I think what I'll run into is gulleys in the road, rocks, etc.

If I have only one set of tires, and they fit stock wheels, which is of course the easiest and cheapest solution, even though snow is infrequent, they should be good in snow. The short story is I was stuck last winter in my 2wd just coming out of the driveway. I know I could do better with weight in the back, or chains, but anyway, there are several guys right near me who have mid-size 4x4 with pretty aggressive tires (a/t) and they have no problems. So it became a thing with me that "I won't be in that situation again". Probably I wouldn't have got the '97 just for that. I also like to go up the county / forest service roads which usually start off nice, there are a few houses, then they get progressively worse until you see a sign "No maintenance past this point". These are old logging roads and forest service roads (latter usually marked with, I think, yellow 3-digit signs). As long as they aren't posted or gated, you can go up any of these roads, it's public domain and the Forest Service told me there is no restriction on driving them unless otherwise posted/gated. There is only one even remotely nearby "Potts Jeep Trail" that might be regulated. But that aside, I could probably spend years going on a different road every time and still not hit all the back roads here say within 50 miles.

Got off topic, anyway, so far, I don't think I'm going to find symmetric a/t tires and I agree with the several comments that it really doesn't matter and as to them being mirrors side to side on the truck, no one cares (except me) and it doesn't affect performance. I'm not going to give up but sooner or later I have to do something because it looks to me like one of the DIscoverers might be showing cord (something white, not letters) at the sidewall and if that's true then it's not what I'd call a good tire. And they only have about 4 to 5mm tread left.

I do recall when I lived up north we always had 2 sets of tires and, yeah, snows are vastly different than mudders.

 

[James Morse]

@sgtsandman posts crossed. I think my last gave a better idea what I want to do. Thanks for trying to drag me back on focus. I totally get everything you said there. Yes two sets of wheels/tires is expensive; I have room to store them, but changing them out w/out a lift would be a pain for sure and doesn't really make sense.

I don't have to worry about work, my shop is 30 feet from the house so that's my commute. I make clavichords, working on 6 in parallel now, and I have things set up so I can in 5 minutes push equipment to the side and have a nice big bay for the truck. Having a shop is a huge plus, having lived many years without one. Anyway, I don't have to be anywhere at any particular time, but when I do want to go somewhere, I like to be able to do it no matter what the conditions. Snow we get maybe 2 or 3 times a year, but when we do, it can be a foot or more and they don't plow very well here so our street can go for days untouched. Yes it packs to ice and then that's a different problem. But it's rare.

As to percent of off road driving in terms of miles it probably wouldn't be 5% if even that. There are going to be lots of places I can't go on the roads I mentioned above, but I'll be able to go a lot further with 4x4 than 2wd. It's just recreation. A result of coming to a dead end in terms of 2wd and seeing 4x4's going past me and wanting to go there too. But the truck would be a daily driver and I might do mods later. I suppose I could keep the 2wd but question how practical it is to have 2 trucks when now that I have the '97 I really am not driving the other one except to exercise it once in a while. I guess I'd only want it if I planned to heavily mod the '97 and I'm a bit loathe to do that since it's so nice as-is, but who knows.

So - yes - a good a/t tire that performs well off road and decent in snow is all I need and I will go back to square one and repeat what I was doing which is just what you said and narrow it down to a few then choose. Cost of course is always an issue but not a big one. I drive maybe 5k miles a year if that, so whatever I get is going to be on there a long time so I don't mind getting something good (and appropriate) even if it costs a little more. As to symmetric, I think I have to accept, it's not happening, not in those tires, and forget about it.

Off topic my cousin's son's son worked at Pease as a contractor. Was not in contact so don't know what he did there, but he died during the 'demic, but we don't know from what. If you ever got over to Pease you might have known him, but I suppose that's a stretch. Like saying, oh, you're from France, I knew someone from France, did you know them?

Anyway, thanks, and I'll proceed accordingly. It's going to be either a 265/75R15 or 31x10.5R15. Since the truck came with 265/75R15, either of those should fit the rims and the truck, and, they will look better compared to the 235/75R15 on there now. It'll raise the truck just a bit to where it was oem. I imagine the previous owner went to the smaller tires to save money since they are quite bit cheaper.

 

[Curious Hound]

@ericbphoto It is about the same here usually just a few snows I am somewhat north of you. What was the main factor in going to the bigger diameter, height? I assume you had to lift the truck.

Trying to get the most ground clearance possible for the budget I had available.

If money were not an issue, I'd have two trucks. One set up similar to this and dedicated to exploring/camping/overlanding trips. The other set up for more extreme trails, rock climbing, offroad parks, able to take a real beating.

 

[Chapap]

I thought I understood the question in post 1, but never saw an answer I don't think. I may be way off, but I think the question is: how are tires designed to be interchangeable around the entire car and also not be symmetrical (mirror image about the center line).

See attached pic. The fancy, slanted groove on the inside of the tire is angled so the inside of the groove hits the pavement first. On the other side of the car, the outside of the groove hits the pavement first. Is that the question? I've been annoyed about that allot and have decided that it's 100% marketing. I also wonder if it even matters if the tire is on backwards.

 

[sgtsandman]

@sgtsandman posts crossed. I think my last gave a better idea what I want to do. Thanks for trying to drag me back on focus. I totally get everything you said there. Yes two sets of wheels/tires is expensive; I have room to store them, but changing them out w/out a lift would be a pain for sure and doesn't really make sense.

I don't have to worry about work, my shop is 30 feet from the house so that's my commute. I make clavichords, working on 6 in parallel now, and I have things set up so I can in 5 minutes push equipment to the side and have a nice big bay for the truck. Having a shop is a huge plus, having lived many years without one. Anyway, I don't have to be anywhere at any particular time, but when I do want to go somewhere, I like to be able to do it no matter what the conditions. Snow we get maybe 2 or 3 times a year, but when we do, it can be a foot or more and they don't plow very well here so our street can go for days untouched. Yes it packs to ice and then that's a different problem. But it's rare.

As to percent of off road driving in terms of miles it probably wouldn't be 5% if even that. There are going to be lots of places I can't go on the roads I mentioned above, but I'll be able to go a lot further with 4x4 than 2wd. It's just recreation. A result of coming to a dead end in terms of 2wd and seeing 4x4's going past me and wanting to go there too. But the truck would be a daily driver and I might do mods later. I suppose I could keep the 2wd but question how practical it is to have 2 trucks when now that I have the '97 I really am not driving the other one except to exercise it once in a while. I guess I'd only want it if I planned to heavily mod the '97 and I'm a bit loathe to do that since it's so nice as-is, but who knows.

So - yes - a good a/t tire that performs well off road and decent in snow is all I need and I will go back to square one and repeat what I was doing which is just what you said and narrow it down to a few then choose. Cost of course is always an issue but not a big one. I drive maybe 5k miles a year if that, so whatever I get is going to be on there a long time so I don't mind getting something good (and appropriate) even if it costs a little more. As to symmetric, I think I have to accept, it's not happening, not in those tires, and forget about it.

Off topic my cousin's son's son worked at Pease as a contractor. Was not in contact so don't know what he did there, but he died during the 'demic, but we don't know from what. If you ever got over to Pease you might have known him, but I suppose that's a stretch. Like saying, oh, you're from France, I knew someone from France, did you know them?

Anyway, thanks, and I'll proceed accordingly. It's going to be either a 265/75R15 or 31x10.5R15. Since the truck came with 265/75R15, either of those should fit the rims and the truck, and, they will look better compared to the 235/75R15 on there now. It'll raise the truck just a bit to where it was oem. I imagine the previous owner went to the smaller tires to save money since they are quite bit cheaper.

I had to look up Clavicords. While I have seen them before. I don't recall anyone saying what they were. Pretty neat.

I've never been to Pease. I've met a few over the years but we normally have little interaction with them and they are on a different portion of the deployment schedule. So, we almost never see people from that base.

I don't remember there being much of anything in 265/75R15. 31X10.5R15 will give you better results but you might find a good deal on the 265s. So don't ignore them.

 

[Josh B]

You are an interesting man James, it took me a bit to recognize that fact, you any kin to Sam?

 

[Blmpkn]

Ok... I think James may have the weirdest job here lol.

Wierd probably isn't the word... but... I mean... half the people I know work In construction and the other half makes food.. super common jobs..

I don't know (or didnt) a single person who makes instruments. Let alone ones that I didn't even know where a thing lol. Neat!

 

[Curious Hound]

I thought a clavichord was a bone in your shoulder.

 

[James Morse]

@ericbphoto I noticed in your pics, at one point you had BFG K02's, later (or earlier) you had General Grabbers. Any preference between the two, size aside?

@Chapap the question is to find tires that are symmetric about a centerline of the truck, so that when you view the truck from front or back, the tires mirror each other, like the rest of the truck does (exterior view of it).

They can be:
(1) symmetrical to themselves (each half of the tire a mirror of the other side), such as high-end street/rain tires, and these are designed to rotate only one way, with arrows on them telling you the rotation; or,
(2) symmetrical but the two halves of the tire not lined up, that still works because the tread is continuous. For instance, tractor tires with the "V" offset tread; these are directional only in the sense you want both pointing the same direction otherwise it would look bizarre and probably act bizarre, but nothing stops you from running them in either direction, you just normally do them both looking the same; I consider this a subset of (1), really.
(3) symmetrical but not directional (military tires with horizontal tread lugs that are offset); these have both the halves symmetric, note that they are also vertically symmetric
(4) asymmetrical but the pattern has vertical/longitudinal symmetry; these are directional either per mfg or because you want them looking/performing mirrored side to side.

Where there are large lugs/treads they will almost for sure be offset side-to-side otherwise you run into problems with tread running all the way across and lining up with lug nuts as described by others.
Depending on the rims you might be able to swap directional tires side-to-side (valve stems would be inside) but that implies a special case where you can attach the rim backwards.

The tires you show, as you have noticed, does not fall under any of the above categories. It is directional per mfg but when you mount them opposite face you do not end up with symmetry relative to the centerline of the truck. Where the tread angles down at the outside of your passenger side tire, it will angle up on the other side. You have noticed this and stated such.

When the tires do not fall under any of the categories then there is no way they can be mirrors to each other on the truck. There would have to be two molds and there would be rights and lefts. I don't know of anyone who does such a thing.

So the answer is, so far, we cannot find an a/t tire that fulfills the requirement. We find military tires, mud tires, quad tires, street/rain tires, but not a/t tires. We went down the rabbit hole, and Alice wasn't there. So the challenge is still out there.

Some tires claim to be symmetric, but they aren't. Usually what you see is the halves are mirrored but reversed vertically and this does not result in what we are looking for.

It's easy to test; just sketch the tread on a piece of paper (make 2 if you want) and flip it over. Is it a mirror of itself, or not?
Somehow my brain kept telling me if you flip it over, it'll be opposite but that's not true. If you flip any one angle 180 degrees, it's still the same angle. You can't take an asymmetric tire and put it on the other side and expect it to be a different tire no matter which way you turn it around. I call it having two left feet.

Still seems odd that no one does it in a/t tires, or we just haven't found them yet, but for sure if they exist they are rare.
Yet millions on millions of tires are out there and you don't hear anyone except me (and you, I guess) complaining about them. It's a visual/cosmetic thing for the most part, apparently doesn't affect drivability at all or we would be hearing about it, I'd think.

Something like the BFG K02 isn't symmetric, but, you probably wouldn't notice it unless you specifically look for it.

@sgtsandman Thanks. Yes 31x10.5 there is a lot more selection but I sure do look at the oem size 265/75R15 as well.

Interesting side fact the word "key" (as in piano keyboard) comes from the fact that to get the keys out of a clavichord you have to lift them up and turn them in a certain way and the opposite to get them in. Iit is exactly the same as putting a key in a lock and turning it. They were common as early as the 1400's, we know this from paintings.

@Blmpkn I studied music in school but I worked in computers 83-06. Most of the first line of programmers were trained as musicians. But I've worked in paper mills and convenience stores and raked leaves and took any best job I could get at the time. I always liked woodworking so I like making the instruments but a lot of it is to have a plan and a project in front of me when I get up. Similar with messing with the trucks, it's tangible work and something you can use afterwards.

@Josh B not that I know of I think I am just Heinz 57

 

[James Morse]

That's clavicle. Comes from the same root though Latin clavis=key ; clavicula=small key -> clavicle because it (the bone) can rotate on its axis, like you turn a key.

 

[Curious Hound]

@ericbphoto I noticed in your pics, at one point you had BFG K02's, later (or earlier) you had General Grabbers. Any preference between the two, size aside?

So, tires....

When I bought the truck from my in-laws, it had General Grabbers on it. Honestly, I didn't really pay much attention to what they were except that they were wore slap out. I did take the truck wheeling on some difficult forest service roads and it surprised me with how well it did. That's when I figured out I had bought a great little mountain goat. But those were street tires. Not even close to what I need.

When I began planning my build, I decided what size tires i wanted and soon began watching Cragslist for tires and wheels. A guy in Charlotte had a set of BFG A/T's that had been on his Jeep for a few years while he did his build. They were old. But they had almost no miles on them. Still had most of the little rubber ties from manufacturing. I also found a set of 15" x 10" wide steel wheels locally to put them on. Those got me by for a few years and they're great tires. The wheels had been previously abused. I had to beat them out as straight as I could. I had trouble with that tire and wheel combination and never could completely get rid of a vibration problem. When I first got them mounted, the balance was off so far that instead of clip-on weights, we used balancing beads. Imperfect wheels? Old tires? Not enough balancing beads in the tires? Who knows.

Finally, I saved up for a new set of wheels and tires. I opted for the mud terrains this time because I have been doing more aggressive offroad driving. These are on straight rims and they balanced well with traditional weights.

I prefer steel wheels. They are more durable for what I do. I like BFG tires. I used to work for Michelin (mai tenance tech at their Lexington, SC plant and was with them when they bought BFG. I am very loyal to Michelin and BFG because of their corporate philosophy regarding quality. I ran BFG Mud terrains on my 88 F150 and they always did what I needed, probably at least 4 sets. I still pay attention to other tires and have to watch my budget. BFG's aren't perfect for every situation. It depends where you're going to wheel with them. Guys out west in desert sand and the big red rock like at Moab need totally different tires than what we use here in the east. You can see that when you watch them on YouTube. Watch video series like ultimate offroad field trip and Great American Crawl and pay attention to how each rig performs in different parks across the country. Besides the education, it's just fun to watch.

 

[Ranger850]

So you must have not only flipped them but mirrored them

I rotated the picture 180* top to bottom. it mirrored itself.

 

[James Morse]

Ranger850 thanks - so that was just what the computer did. Can't do it in real life though (the mirroring)... unfortunately.

Eric, thanks. I might have misidentified some of your tires as General Grabber and K02 have a really similar tread. Then I see you went to the KM3 as you were talking about, a mud/terrain tire. The review say it's pretty good in snow, and someone left a comment they have seen people go from K02 to KM3 but never the other way around. It (KM3) looks like a nice agressive tire and I like the blackwall even though that's not oem (OWL) spec. Are they super noisy or not too bad, on the highway?

One thing is I like to get US made if I can and seems like Generals are made in US but BFG maybe, maybe not. Do you have any info on that? Obviously if they were made at your plant you knew they were made here but buying them over the counter, not sure how I could tell unless it said on them.

My neighbor works at the Yokohama plant here so he gets big discounts on them but I wouldn't and not sure that's a tire I'd want anyway.

Your comment about wheels, you are saying the steel are more durable than aluminum. Seems like it would have to take a heck of a hit to dent the rims.... but I believe what you say. For me probably I could stick with the stock wheels for the time being.

Slightly off topic only, is there any advantage to going to a larger wheel, for instance can you get a 17" wheel to fit the truck, and if you put a 265/70R17 (e.g. Cepek) on it, does that do anything for you besides look different (and I suppose not necessarily better)?

I'll watch some vids. Here I think I am going to run into gravel, dirt, rocky/crushed rock roads, maybe some mud, probably not that much sand.

Our trucks are same gen I think and even though I so far only went up a pretty tame road I had that same feeling about it being sure footed.

I'm going to have to spec something as far as spare. Sounds like, get an add'l wheel and short term carry it in the bed strapped down, longer term, rear bumper mount carrier.
There's no alternative to that short of just hoping you either don't get a flat, or if you do, you are in a place you can limp home with the spare on the front and not be in 4x4.
Murphy's law says if you have the good spare you'll probably never need it, if you don't have it, you'll probably get a flat.

A set of 5 good tires, plus another wheel, mounted and balanced, I'm thinking that's going to run total something like 1500, so a chunk of change, but I'd like to do it before winter which is like, now, just about. And I knew I'd have to do this when I haggled on the truck, that was one of the strategies to accept one of their offers but with a set of a/t's, they balked at that but it helped in the negotiations.

And I'd have the alignment checked when they are put on that would only make sense, usually they do that for free hoping it will be out of spec (then they charge to set it right).
I suppose there are ways to set alignment using strings but I'd rather not.

 

[Curious Hound]

These are OWL tires, mounted with the lettering to the inside. Absolutely no effect on performance.

Noise? As far as mud tires go, these are normally a bit less than normal noise. Not bad in my opinion.

Where are they made? BFG began as an American company. The majority (if not all) of their tires will be American made. Even if they make some in other countries, it would be cheaper to sell you an American made tire as opposed to one made overseas and shipped in through customs.

Wheel size? For what I do, a small wheel with big tire is better. Having more sidewall rubber gives more cushion and flexibility and helps prevent the tire from getting pinched between wheel and rock or pot hole. Race cars need the opposite for better handling in curves at high speeds. You can use any size wheel you want as long as it has the proper lug patter, center bore, backspacing and clears the brakes. Some newer trucks have large disc brake calipers that require clearance. You then select a tire that fits your wheel and has the proper outside diameter. The tire is what normally rubs on fenders, radius arms, etc. Not the wheel. Also note, to fit 35/12.50 tires on my gen3 Ranger, I have a 6" suspension lift and I have cut the fenders for clearance.

Concerning flats, I always carry a spare AND a tire plug kit. I have carried the spare tied down in the bed quite often. But that takes up space for camping gear. My first home built tire carrier fits in a 2" hitch receiver and works well. Just inconvenient to remove and install when I need access to the bed through the tailgate. It's currently listed on FB marketplace for $50. I hope to get at least $40 for it. Pictures in my build thread.

 

[sgtsandman]

The KM3 tires have gotten very good reviews and are quiet for a mud tire. From the reviews I've seen comparing the KM2 vs the KM3, the people who have used both liked them equally as well but appreciated the quieter tread pattern. Just keep in mind that mud tires are generally not great in snow. Some are netter than others and will get you through but it won't be as smooth of a drive as a winter tire or good all terrain will give you. I honestly haven't paid attention to the snow reviews on the KM3. So they may be the exception to the rule.

I also realize you may be just getting information for a future, separate set of tires. So, there is that. Jim has had some very good things to say about the Cooper Brand mud tires. I don't remember which ones he mentioned and/or used specifically but something else to consider. My experience with that brand was passenger car tires, winter tires, and a set of all terrain tires that are no longer in production. So, I can't offer much more than that. They do make a good winter tire.