Symmetric vs asymmetric tread

[Roert42]

I kind of want to pursue that more even though that's a more aggressive tread than I might be thinking, it would be awesome in snow, dirt, mud, on rocks - everything, right?

Tires with large lugs and spacing are terrible in snow. Snow tires are the exact opposite of a mud tire.

Mud tires have big lug spacing to keep the mud from clogging up the tread and throw the mud out. Snow tires have a bunch of small tight sipping to help with snowy traction.


a 12" wide tire should fit, but it would depend on the back spacing of the wheel. Obviously you would need a wider then stock wheel too. They also have 10.5" w/ 33s and 35s in the boggers.

They also have a narrow version of the Super swampper that 34/9.5R15. Not symmetrical though.

 

[James Morse]

I may have mis-spoke on the TSL Bogger wheel size. It doesn't tell the rim size, 12.0 is the width of the tire itself. They do appear to fit my rims (15").

Super Swamper 31x12.50-15LT Tire, TSL Bogger - B-113 | 4wheelparts.com

This might be the tire for me... really aggressive... I'd probably have to accept that they would not be terrific highway tires and woud probably be rather noisy. But for off-road, I think they would be awesome. Thanks.

 

[Roert42]

I may have mis-spoke on the TSL Bogger wheel size. It doesn't tell the rim size, 12.0 is the width of the tire itself. They do appear to fit my rims (15").

Super Swamper 31x12.50-15LT Tire, TSL Bogger - B-113 | 4wheelparts.com

This might be the tire for me... really aggressive... I'd probably have to accept that they would not be terrific highway tires and woud probably be rather noisy. But for off-road, I think they would be awesome. Thanks.

The with of the wheel should be close to the with of the tire. A little bit narrower is better so the wheel doesn’t stick out past the side wall. Too much narrow or too much wider and you will have issues with sealing the bead, it will also look stupid.

I think most people will run a 10” wide wheel on a 12.5” wide tire.

 

[Roert42]

 

[James Morse]

Ah, so I'd still have to change rims because mine would be too narrow even though ok on diameter. I'd think, that since you'd have to change out the wheels, you could determine what's the backspacing needed.

Some posts crossed, sorry. I get what you are saying.

Didn't understand that about snow vs mud, thanks for explaining that.

Sounds like I need one set of good highway/snow tires then the other set of wheels/tires for off road. I'd put the more mildly-treaded ones on my stock wheels (using 265/75R15 or 31x10.5R15) and then the other ones I'd put on for off road. Leaving snow aside, the Boggers would be good for off-road, right? I mean, if you don't run into any mud, great, but if you do, you have the correct tire for it.

I hate thinking right now about going bigger than 31" because then it gets into lifting.

 

[James Morse]

OK, fantastic. So if I go that route, I want to look for decent 10" wide rims that fit my bolt pattern then I need to find out what backspacing is correct for my truck.

Lifts aren't all that expensive, I've always wanted one. Some you can bolt down then unbolt and move. I'm just a little nervous about putting permanent posts it restricts other things I want to do in the shop.

I'd have to determine whether those tires stick out past the fenders. I don't know what the laws are here. I sometimes see trucks with tires a handful of inches past the fenders, but I don't like the look that much and it might not be legal. The flares add maybe an inch compared to not having them but still.
It would be a 305mm wide tire compared to 265 (stock). 12" compared to 10.5". On the other hand, it seems like it's adding "only" 3/4" per side, that's not much. If they are centered the same the difference is split both inner and outer. That would be good, unless that 3/4" made a difference in rubbing.

The widths of the tires is measured at the widest part of the sidewall, afaik, so the tread itself is not ever as wide as that number, but it's kind of proportional.
But I know on sports cars if you look at a 315 low aspect ratio tire, that's one wide tire and you see it wide.
I'm not sure what the respective aspect ratio of a 31x12R15 would be, I'm sure there's a formula to find it. In other words to translate it to a metric designation. It's not necessary, just makes it easier for me to compare to known things.

 

[Curious Hound]

OK, fantastic. So if I go that route, I want to look for decent 10" wide rims that fit my bolt pattern then I need to find out what backspacing is correct for my truck.

Lifts aren't all that expensive, I've always wanted one. Some you can bolt down then unbolt and move. I'm just a little nervous about putting permanent posts it restricts other things I want to do in the shop.

I'd have to determine whether those tires stick out past the fenders. I don't know what the laws are here. I sometimes see trucks with tires a handful of inches past the fenders, but I don't like the look that much and it might not be legal. The flares add maybe an inch compared to not having them but still.
It would be a 305mm wide tire compared to 265 (stock). 12" compared to 10.5". On the other hand, it seems like it's adding "only" 3/4" per side, that's not much. If they are centered the same the difference is split both inner and outer. That would be good, unless that 3/4" made a difference in rubbing.

The widths of the tires is measured at the widest part of the sidewall, afaik, so the tread itself is not ever as wide as that number, but it's kind of proportional.
But I know on sports cars if you look at a 315 low aspect ratio tire, that's one wide tire and you see it wide.
I'm not sure what the respective aspect ratio of a 31x12R15 would be, I'm sure there's a formula to find it. In other words to translate it to a metric designation. It's not necessary, just makes it easier for me to compare to known things.

Most online tire size calculators work forwards and backwards from metric to American designations.

I would recommend backspacing around 4" to 4.5" with a 10" wide wheel. I'm running 35"/12.50 - 15" tires on 10" wide 15" diameter wheels. I'm pretty sure my backspacing is 4". Here's how much they stick out past the fenders. They do rub my radius arms slightly when turning as sharp as possible.

They stick out a little bit more after an angry rock pushes your fender in.

 

[Roert42]

the Boggers would be good for off-road, right?

I've never used them, I can't personally attest. However TSL is a big name in offroad tires.

From their website it looks like the bogger is designed for mud pit racing, but still a DOT approved tire.

 

[James Morse]

Nice Splash.
How are you getting all that snow in SC??

Is that AOR bumper?

Are the side bars connected to the frame or are they just steps? Do you like them?

That is a giant tire. Do you notice less pep on highway or is it not a factor.

I like it.

 

[James Morse]

Holy crap Batman. He'll need a trip to the car wash. His spare doesn't look like a mud tire, does it? Is he running those? I'll check out the site, thanks.

 

[Blmpkn]

The boggers are good for bogging, and that's about it. The tread isn't much good at side-hill/off camber traction, just digging forward through sloppy stuff. The classic super swamper (or any if it's variants) would be a much better pick if you want an all purpose tire.. but terrible if you need to deal with snow.

 

[Curious Hound]

Nice Splash.
How are you getting all that snow in SC??
We usually get at least one light snowstorm per winter. Normally melts away in a day or two.

Is that AOR bumper?
Old Jeep bumper. It's been modified several times and is about to change drastically again because I recently got hit by an angry tree

Are the side bars connected to the frame or are they just steps? Do you like them?
Those are custom built rock sliders. They are bolted directly to the frame. I love them. No more lower body damage.

That is a giant tire. Do you notice less pep on highway or is it not a factor.
I regeared to 4.56, which puts me almost exactly back to factory gearing performance. But, with the extra weight and rolling resistance of the tires and bad aerodynamics from the lift, my fuel mileage is down to about 15mpg average on the street. It's a 3.0l engine with 5 spd manual. So, it's no speed demon.

I like it.
Thanks

 

[pjtoledo]

OK, fantastic. So if I go that route, I want to look for decent 10" wide rims that fit my bolt pattern then I need to find out what backspacing is correct for my truck.

Lifts aren't all that expensive, I've always wanted one. Some you can bolt down then unbolt and move. I'm just a little nervous about putting permanent posts it restricts other things I want to do in the shop.

I'd have to determine whether those tires stick out past the fenders. I don't know what the laws are here. I sometimes see trucks with tires a handful of inches past the fenders, but I don't like the look that much and it might not be legal. The flares add maybe an inch compared to not having them but still.
It would be a 305mm wide tire compared to 265 (stock). 12" compared to 10.5". On the other hand, it seems like it's adding "only" 3/4" per side, that's not much. If they are centered the same the difference is split both inner and outer. That would be good, unless that 3/4" made a difference in rubbing.

The widths of the tires is measured at the widest part of the sidewall, afaik, so the tread itself is not ever as wide as that number, but it's kind of proportional.
But I know on sports cars if you look at a 315 low aspect ratio tire, that's one wide tire and you see it wide.
I'm not sure what the respective aspect ratio of a 31x12R15 would be, I'm sure there's a formula to find it. In other words to translate it to a metric designation. It's not necessary, just makes it easier for me to compare to known things.

easy to calculate, your example is a 67% aspect ratio per math, not actual measuring.

subtract the 15" wheel from the 31" overall height. your tire parts are 16" combined top & bottom.
take half of the tire-parts height, that's 8" and divide by the width, 12" to get .667 so you have about 67% aspect ratio.

for metrics, 12" * 25.4 = 304.8mm so it's a 305/67-15 tire.

note: actual and calculated may vary considerably from advertised dimensions.

 

[Josh B]

In looking at a lot of tires, this occurred to me and has been bothering me.

Tread on tires:
You can have unidirectional. Usually we don't see that except for instance high performance Goodyears for street cars.
A good example is those large tractor tires. If you mounted 2 rear tractor tires to the same face, you'd end up with the sides having opposite tread which of course you would not do.
So the outside face of the 2 tires has to be different. When you do that, it essentially reverses the direction of rotation, is a way of thinking about it, and the tires being symmetrical, it looks, and is, exactly right.
Same drill for street tires. They have to be symmetrical to be unidirectional or it would look strange.

If you have OWL on only one side of the tire, then, you cannot mount different faces. Just a side note. I mean, you could, but you'd lose the lettering if it was only on one side of the tire.

So leaving aside unidirectional since it doesn't really apply to us (I don't think); it is just to get in the mindset of what happens when you mount the tire with one side or the other facing out.

Here's the thing that bothers me. If tires are not symmetrical tread (bisecting the tire, the 2 sides are mirror images), no matter how you mount them, they will NOT be symmetrical side to side. That's what gets me because although it's true the truck is not symmetrical in lots of way, the body and general shape of it at least outside is intended to look symmetrical.

I know it seems like, if you flip a tire over, that would reverse everything.... and it does (as in the tractor tire example).... but if it's not symmetrical, what you end up with is the tread on one side is not a mirror of the other side. Like, you have two lefts or two rights. There is no way the left and right tires will be mirrors.

So if there is any intent in the tread design to, for instance, channel water to the outside, it will channel to the inside on the other side of the truck.

Take for example this tire, which I'm looking at as a probable when I upgrade tires:
Mickey Thompson 52510 Mickey Thompson Baja Legend EXP Tires | Summit Racing

That is not a symmetrical tire. No matter how you turn it or flip it, you will have the lines that you see running diagonally through the middle part of the tread running the same direction. They won't be mirror images. As I said it's like you will have 2 lefts or 2 rights in a sense.

To me it seemed like flipping the face - for instance those M Thompson tires you could do that as they are not OWL and it looks like there is no front/back, I think the faces are identical - it seemed like flipping the face would do the trick but it just doesn't work that way. I made little mock up tires/tread and turned them around and turning something asymmetrical 180 degrees does in fact reverse it but if it's not symmetrical you end up with that weird situation that is bothering me. Obviously it's not terribly important or it things wouldn't be like that, but you see what I'm saying. To me the two sides should have the tread as a mirror of the other side. A lot of tires look on first glance like that's true, but, they aren't. Regular street tires probably just about always are symmetrical, but not a/t tires.

Thoughts?

I referred to the same one you referred to sir

 

[sgtsandman]

James, you’re still over thinking things. Yes, it is important to get the best tire match to the conditions you expect to face but you keep veering off into the weeds.

Unless a tire is specifically marked as a directional tire, it is designed to run in both directions and will perform equally regardless of which way the tread is facing.

How symmetrical the tread is, only part of the equation. Tread pattern, siping, grooves, the size of the grooves, block size, and rubber compound all factor into the mix. Tire companies spend a lot of time and money researching and testing all of those based on the intended use of the tire.

Every tire is a compromise. Especially those designed as an all season/all terrain tire. They are going to perform best in some situations and worse in others. Some such tires are pretty much horrible all around and some are pretty darn good. The price paid tends to reflect how well they perform but that is not always true. Just a general axiom.

Dedicated tires perform excellently at a specifically situation. Such as mud tires, sand tires, and snow tires. But can not be that great at others. Thus why the comments about the mud tires in snow.

My impression of what you described as to what you want to do, a good all terrain tire will serve you well if you want one tire for everything.

Conversely, I’ve found all season tires to not be great in snow. They are great spring through fall and if you keep hours where roads are kept clear most of the time in the winter where there might be some light snow or slushy conditions here and there.

If you work hours, like I do where you are out well before the road crews, a winter tire is going to be the best choice. That being said, I have found that a well made all terrain performs nearly as well, if not as well as a winter tire.

For off road driving. If you are on regular trails that while muddy aren’t a mud bog, a well made all terrain tire will also serve you well. Now if the trails you plan to drive on are know to have some pretty large and deep muddy areas, an all terrain will fall short. Those who make a living driving off road and taking others on off road tours will recommend that an all terrain will serve most people well unless they spend more time off road than on road. Then a mud tire should be considered.

If you choose to have separate sets of tires, there is nothing wrong with that other than it is going to cost you more money and you have to find a place to store them.

Everyone here is trying to help you and get the best bang for the buck recommendation for you but you keep diving into these rabbit holes. By all means, research and ask questions but please stop over thinking things. You are making things harder and more complex than they need to be.

Focus and a tire design you think will work for what you want to do, whether it is a single design or more than one and see what customer reviews have to say about the different offerings for that design.

Tire Rack and 1010 tires are two places that will help you greatly in evaluating how well a tire performs. They have very well developed consumer review sections and over all ratings on how well a particular tire performs in different road and terrain conditions.

Generally speaking, you will find that the more expensive tires will get better reviews than the less expensive ones. But that is only a general axiom and where the reviews come into play. Bear in mind, like anything else, you will have poor reviews on a generally well rated tire but the reviews will also will show those people don’t know what they are talking about in one way or another or they chose the wrong tire to do the job.

All said, I think an all terrain is a best over all fit for you and I would focus on getting the best tire for that. Get on Tire Rack and 1010 Tire and scrub through what is offered in the tire size you want and narrow down to what will give you the best fit.