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A Few Misc Questions


gaz

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My credo
Deengineer until it is how Blue Oval should have sold it!!
@kxri318 ,
The only time I've ever seen a 2.9l run rough, it had experienced a head gasket/head or lower intake manifold gasket failure, permitting coolant into the oil.

The only times I've ever seen one stall, it was either an automatic with a failed torque converter or had been driven with a compromised head or coolant leaking into engine by some means.

If misfires I would pursue the fuel system if timing is correct.

If it were only hi idle, I would chase vacuum lines.

SOLVE these issues CONCLUSIVELY, one at a time. I would follow this order:
1) stalling
2) misfire
3) hi idle

Do one thing correctly, then move to the next. Unfortunately, thing don't always fail one at a time and sometimes one failure will usher in another 😐
 


gaz

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Vehicle Year
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Make / Model
Ford
Engine Size
87Ranger Endrigo 2.9l, 87BII Endrigo 4.0l
2WD / 4WD
4WD
Total Lift
Ranger 5" (1.5" suspension), BII 4" suspension
Total Drop
Ranger 5sp, BII A4LD
Tire Size
Ranger 33"/4:10LS, BII 29"/3:73LS
My credo
Deengineer until it is how Blue Oval should have sold it!!
@kxri318 ,
Also, if you have never done it, pull off the valve covers, remove the rocker assembies, disassemble them completely.

Clean and inspect each component for damage and serviceability (the rocker arms should be caked FULL of sludge). Drill each of the oil holes in the rocker shafts and arms 1 drill bit size larger, deburr and chamfer the 90°. This help oil circulation on your top end.

After doing this, you will need to learn (if you have never before done it) how to preload your hydraulic lifters. I check mine every 30k miles, keeps the fuel economy where I require it. 🎁
 

kxri318

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@kxri318 ,
The only time I've ever seen a 2.9l run rough, it had experienced a head gasket/head or lower intake manifold gasket failure, permitting coolant into the oil.

The only times I've ever seen one stall, it was either an automatic with a failed torque converter or had been driven with a compromised head or coolant leaking into engine by some means.

If misfires I would pursue the fuel system if timing is correct.

If it were only hi idle, I would chase vacuum lines.

SOLVE these issues CONCLUSIVELY, one at a time. I would follow this order:
1) stalling
2) misfire
3) hi idle

Do one thing correctly, then move to the next. Unfortunately, thing don't always fail one at a time and sometimes one failure will usher in another 😐
I would try, but I can't even get the thing to start anymore. Everywhere says that the Standard Motor Product RY-111 relay works for the ECU relay but I bought one from eBay and it didn't work (and also looked different than the listing), then I just bought another Standard Motor Product RY-111 from O'Reilly just in-case the eBay one was the wrong relay, but still doesn't work. I checked for power at both the ECU relay and the fuel pump relay and they're both getting 12v. Swapped out the ECU to a spare and that didn't change a thing. The connection to the ECU relay seems very solid too. I checked for power at the fuel injectors when the key was turned and saw no power there. I hear no click either when turning the key like I did before. The original relay used to work fine before it fried but there's 0 information written on it other than the Ford logo.
 

RonD

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RY-111 has pin layout like this: https://www.stockwiseauto.com/images/tmb/375x375_products-temp-PRD_789568_113_RY-111-Other.jpg

So does that fit/plug in to the base?
If so its the right relay

Ford also used this type: https://www.gtsparkplugs.com/images/micro-automotive-relay-wiring.jpg

And this type: https://www.gtsparkplugs.com/images/mini-automotive-relay-wiring-840x.jpg
Over the years

EEC/PCM relay is always grounded, one of the smaller slots/pins
The other smaller slot gets 12volts from key on, ignition switch

The 2 other larger slots/pins are what pass voltage, 30amp rating, when relay's smaller slots have both 12v and ground
 

kxri318

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RY-111 has pin layout like this: https://www.stockwiseauto.com/images/tmb/375x375_products-temp-PRD_789568_113_RY-111-Other.jpg

So does that fit/plug in to the base?
If so its the right relay

Ford also used this type: https://www.gtsparkplugs.com/images/micro-automotive-relay-wiring.jpg

And this type: https://www.gtsparkplugs.com/images/mini-automotive-relay-wiring-840x.jpg
Over the years

EEC/PCM relay is always grounded, one of the smaller slots/pins
The other smaller slot gets 12volts from key on, ignition switch

The 2 other larger slots/pins are what pass voltage, 30amp rating, when relay's smaller slots have both 12v and ground
Yeah both of them fit into the base and clip in perfectly. I'm assuming the small 12v slot is for the actual ECU power, but what are the larger pins powering? I know it goes through the fuel pump relay at least.
 

RonD

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The smaller pins turn relay on and off, they connect to relay's coil, 85 and 86 in the other diagrams

One larger pin has 12v all the time, from a fuse or fusible link
Other larger pin is 12v OUT, it powers ECU, injectors, IAC Valve, most 12v engine bay solenoids, and fuel pump relay's coil, not the fuel pump, just one of the smaller pins on FP Relay

ECU needs to ground the other smaller pin on FP relay for it to come on and turn on fuel pump in the tank
 

kxri318

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The smaller pins turn relay on and off, they connect to relay's coil, 85 and 86 in the other diagrams

One larger pin has 12v all the time, from a fuse or fusible link
Other larger pin is 12v OUT, it powers ECU, injectors, IAC Valve, most 12v engine bay solenoids, and fuel pump relay's coil, not the fuel pump, just one of the smaller pins on FP Relay

ECU needs to ground the other smaller pin on FP relay for it to come on and turn on fuel pump in the tank
I took a few more specific measurements at the ECU relay connector and made a little diagram to show the voltages per pin, with/without the relay in and with/without the key turned to accessory. Maybe it hints to something, not sure. I didn't measure 12v at any large pin.

Pin 1 is ground

relay.png
 
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RonD

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Pins 1 and 2 are the same as 85 and 86 they activate the relay
3 and 4 pass the 12volt to EEC and other engine devices when relay is activated

Pin 1 is a full time ground
Pin 2 is key on power from ignition switch, activates the relay
(your battery voltage, 11.5v, is very low, 12.3v-12.8v is expected, but not the current issue)

Pin 3 or 4 should have full time 12v power, thats what is missing

Fuse or fusible link is bad

On a 1986 the battery positive cable should connect to one of the larger Starter Relay posts(often mispronounced starter solenoid, lol)

Along with the battery positive cable will be several smaller wires on the same post
This post is the 12volt distribution for the whole vehicle
The smaller wires are Fusible links

They look like this: https://m.roadkillcustoms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/14AWG-Fusible-Link-1024x504.jpg

Or this: https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage/N3062A/large/5015383_dcd_85622_pri_larg.jpg

Fusible link is a "slow blow" fuse, and its wire and insulation won't start a fire if it blows

The fusible link end is on the post, other end is connected to a wire that goes to the device being powered
In this case the EEC relay slot

Only diagram I have is below, a bit hard to follow but it does show fusible links, not fuses, powering the EEC relay(and FP relay)
You will need to find the bad connection or blown fusible link
 

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kxri318

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Pins 1 and 2 are the same as 85 and 86 they activate the relay
3 and 4 pass the 12volt to EEC and other engine devices when relay is activated

Pin 1 is a full time ground
Pin 2 is key on power from ignition switch, activates the relay
(your battery voltage, 11.5v, is very low, 12.3v-12.8v is expected, but not the current issue)

Pin 3 or 4 should have full time 12v power, thats what is missing

Fuse or fusible link is bad

On a 1986 the battery positive cable should connect to one of the larger Starter Relay posts(often mispronounced starter solenoid, lol)

Along with the battery positive cable will be several smaller wires on the same post
This post is the 12volt distribution for the whole vehicle
The smaller wires are Fusible links

They look like this: https://m.roadkillcustoms.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/14AWG-Fusible-Link-1024x504.jpg

Or this: https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage/N3062A/large/5015383_dcd_85622_pri_larg.jpg

Fusible link is a "slow blow" fuse, and its wire and insulation won't start a fire if it blows

The fusible link end is on the post, other end is connected to a wire that goes to the device being powered
In this case the EEC relay slot

Only diagram I have is below, a bit hard to follow but it does show fusible links, not fuses, powering the EEC relay(and FP relay)
You will need to find the bad connection or blown fusible link
I found the bad fusible link and also saw Summit Racing has a new one for $4. Would you recommend soldering the new one on or is crimping fine? Also, I measure 11.82V at the battery terminals with accessories on and 11.51V at pin 2.
 

RonD

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Crimp connection is OK, just seal it with tape or heat shrink

Yes, battery might be close to end of life
But if its been hooked up to Ranger for a while without being recharged by running engine it could just be drained, but that also shortens its life, lol

Always a good idea to disconnect Negative Battery Cable when a vehicle will sit longer than 2 months

After you get it started battery should read 14volts at least, that means alternator is working
Alternator's put out minimum 13.5volts and maximum 14.8volts
Batteries are max 12.9volts and minimum 12.3volts, 12.2v and lower is a drained or dying battery
So with engine running alternator is powering ALL systems, and recharging battery
 

kxri318

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Crimp connection is OK, just seal it with tape or heat shrink

Yes, battery might be close to end of life
But if its been hooked up to Ranger for a while without being recharged by running engine it could just be drained, but that also shortens its life, lol

Always a good idea to disconnect Negative Battery Cable when a vehicle will sit longer than 2 months

After you get it started battery should read 14volts at least, that means alternator is working
Alternator's put out minimum 13.5volts and maximum 14.8volts
Batteries are max 12.9volts and minimum 12.3volts, 12.2v and lower is a drained or dying battery
So with engine running alternator is powering ALL systems, and recharging battery
First, sorry for taking a few days to respond. I was gonna go get the new ring terminal after work the other day, but my car also stopped starting too and I had to get towed home from work. The battery leaked a little and caused a bunch of corrosion on the terminals which made a bad connection. The ground side battery terminal connector was also cracked which I wasn't aware of until now. Cleaned it up good, swapped out the connector, and its fine now.

Anyway, I could only find a much thinner ring terminal that was 22-18 gauge and 5/16" stud size. Almost nowhere even had those sizes, let alone one as wide as the original. I attached a picture of the new one vs the original, do you think the new one is too small to carry the power going through it? Also, I had to get a new ring terminal because the fusible link wire burned up right at the ring terminal crimp so the wire was too short to just connect another bit of fusible link wire to.
20231005_215801.jpg

Another thing I found is that it still didn't work with the new relay and fusible link. I measured a constant 11.80 volts (which is the same as battery voltage) at the yellow colored wire attached to one of the big pins. I put in the old relay and somehow it works still. I feel like these aren't the same models the original relay even though every place online says to get the part number RY-111, multiple new relays did nothing that were labeled as that model number, but the original relay works great. I don't want to keep the original though as the cap doesn't stay on at all which is what caused this issue in the first place, plus the spot where the clip goes on the original relay is broken, and it also has burn marks on it.

I was wondering too if getting battery voltage at the larger pin (11.80V with accessories on) while only getting 11.51V at the smaller pin is normal. The battery is 4-5 years old, but the truck also has been sitting for about a week.

Extra thing I found when looking into this issue is that the side of the positive battery cable that connects to the starter relay was so corroded that I had to hold a wire wheel on it for a few seconds before I could get to bare metal.
 

RonD

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When key is ON both voltages should drop, at large and small slot
So 11.8v key off should drop to 11.5v key on
Generally Key On drop is .1-.2v if battery is at 12.3v to 12.8v

If its 11.8v and 11.5v with key on then you might have a bit of corrosion in the connections at firewall or ignition switch
But its not enough of a drop to cause a relay not to work, 12v relays work even if you give them only 7volts

As for the new relays, do you see the word Diode or a -->|-- symbol on the case
Some relays have a internal diode on the 85/86 pins, small pins, so they will only work if 12v is on correct pin

Diode relay setup seen here: https://www.gtsparkplugs.com/images/mini-relay-diode-wiring.jpg
Pin 85 needs to be the ground and pin 86 the 12volts, or it won't work

I robbed an old radio or smoke detector or ???, can't remember, lol, of its 9v battery connector with wires
I use it to test 12v relays,, I test it both ways to make sure has no diode, and that it works of course
You can test your new relays to see if they work, small pins connected to + and -

Just as a heads up on 9v batteries, never put one in your pocket with spare change or keys....................
Man they get HOT when posts short together on a coin or key :)
 

kxri318

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When key is ON both voltages should drop, at large and small slot
So 11.8v key off should drop to 11.5v key on
Generally Key On drop is .1-.2v if battery is at 12.3v to 12.8v

If its 11.8v and 11.5v with key on then you might have a bit of corrosion in the connections at firewall or ignition switch
But its not enough of a drop to cause a relay not to work, 12v relays work even if you give them only 7volts

As for the new relays, do you see the word Diode or a -->|-- symbol on the case
Some relays have a internal diode on the 85/86 pins, small pins, so they will only work if 12v is on correct pin

Diode relay setup seen here: https://www.gtsparkplugs.com/images/mini-relay-diode-wiring.jpg
Pin 85 needs to be the ground and pin 86 the 12volts, or it won't work

I robbed an old radio or smoke detector or ???, can't remember, lol, of its 9v battery connector with wires
I use it to test 12v relays,, I test it both ways to make sure has no diode, and that it works of course
You can test your new relays to see if they work, small pins connected to + and -

Just as a heads up on 9v batteries, never put one in your pocket with spare change or keys....................
Man they get HOT when posts short together on a coin or key :)
The 11.8v and 11.5v are at the same time with key on. Key off is about 12.10v. I looked into voltage drop on the negative side and found nothing but I'll definitely look into drop on the positive side.

The only writing on the new relay says "JD191U2A-12V" and then the pin numbers on the bottom 1-5. No symbols whatsoever. Just tested it by putting a 9v on the two smaller pins and the relay did nothing. Tested it with a variable voltage charger I have too so it was getting exactly 12v and the relay didn't do anything with that either.

Also I just wanted to confirm, is the new ring terminal size fine or should I worry about it getting hot since its a lot smaller?
 

RonD

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Eyelet size is fine, will be OK up to 40amps, fusible links are 30amps usually, so "fuse" will blow before eyelet will melt from heat

So the new relays don't work at all????
What about when you test the old relay that way

for the pin numbers
1 = 85
2 = 86
3 = 30
4 = 87A(not present on 4 pin relays)
5 = 87

85 and 86 activate relay, smaller pins
 

kxri318

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Eyelet size is fine, will be OK up to 40amps, fusible links are 30amps usually, so "fuse" will blow before eyelet will melt from heat

So the new relays don't work at all????
What about when you test the old relay that way

for the pin numbers
1 = 85
2 = 86
3 = 30
4 = 87A(not present on 4 pin relays)
5 = 87

85 and 86 activate relay, smaller pins
I just tested the old relay the same way and the old relay doesn't click or anything when connected to the 9v power either. Works in the truck though which I don't understand since I'm putting near the same power to the same pins as it would be in the truck.

I realized that I could just take the cap off the eBay relay and put it on the OEM one, so now the cap is secure and won't fall off.
 
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