1991 2wd 3.0 noise??

[BullFrog13x4]

Hello all,

First i have to say i am new to the forums, but i have been checking out the ranger station for a while now.

Ok, now for the business...

I recently purchased a 1991 for ranger 2wd with a 3.0 v6 and a 5spd mdo5 for $500.00, i now excellent price.. here is why it was so cheep.

The previous owner thought the engine was toasted, because of a knocking noise. of course this concerned me, but for $500.00 i thought worst case i get a new engine. Now that i have had it for a few weeks and i have been testing it, i found that the engine seems extremely solid and it does NOT knock all of the time. it has even good compression on all 6 cylinders (115-125 psi) and none of the rockers are loose, at least from a visual inspection. the distributor seems to be within spec, i pulled it to make sure and there is only 15-16 thou of end play (this is based on the specs for the 5.0, i cant find the specs for the ranger dist; if anyone has them or a link, please post it). In the last couple of weeks here in Michigan we have had extremely cold temps, and i noticed something that is a BIG clue.

Ok, first in normal weather the engine would have a knock similar to a rocker noise but deep sounding, only at idle; if it is idling and knocking i can raise the rpm to around 2 grand and hold it there for a few seconds and the noise would go away and it would sound choice for a while, even at idle. Then after idling for a few minutes it would start to tick/ knock again. remember this is at around 60 deg air temp outside.

Now, for the new clue, at 20 deg outside temp or lower it doesn't want to knock at all, i can only get a random vary faint little tick i have to listen really closely to hear, it seems that if it is cold and the noise goes away it might be an oil issue, as in weak oil or pressure, but the mechanical gauge i have reads between 40-60psi no matter the outside temp. The noise when the outside temp is around 60 deg is really loud, very embarrassing when pulling up to a stop sign, some people are even scared of it because it sounds like it is going to explode. So i was thinking it could be a timing chain or bad lifter, but with the new CLUE i am thinking it cant be a timing chain because the cold would not fix that. The possible bad lifter? maybe? When it is could outside and i have the random faint tick i can stick my stethoscope to the front of the pass side valve cover and hear it, but no where else?

Any ideas???

I am slightly confused with this sound, and don't want to replace parts at random just to fix it. if i can narrow it down then i might just save this 3.0. Also remember i only paid $500 for the truck and i am a cheep bast#@!. so i am NOT going to just throw a ton of parts at it guessing, i will only replace what is actually broken/ bad.

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

BullFrog

 

[BullFrog13x4]

So, nobody has any ideas?

Well an update; i am going to give it an oil change this weekend along with getting it road legal (ins+ plates), so i will be driving it daily from Monday (02/11/2013) onward. I know what took me so long right? well i am in college and the cost of tuition comes first.

Since i have that noise at idle and it goes away when the rpm's are raised or it gets cold out, i am going to use some "thick" oil to see if it goes away completely or not. 10w40 what do you guys think about using that oil in it? What about adding in some lucas? Will i just be creating a bigger mess? I figured if the engine is crap then what could it hurt? It might even buy me some time to find a good quiet 3.0 to replace it with.

Well i guess it will either blow up or run for another few miles either way it will be on the road.

 

[RonD]

I would put some Marvel Mystery Oil in with the next change.
Lucas Stop Leak is good for softening rubber seals, i.e. valve guides and main seals
But if oil leaks or smoke from exhaust isn't an issue then save your money.

Reads like lifter issue, since they are hydraulic lifters, higher oil pressure(RPM) stops the tap.
Thicker oil might help.
Next time you have the valve covers off feel/spin each push rod on the closed valves, then rotate the crank 360deg and do it again to feel all push rods in slack positions.
Push rods should spin but feel tight, you will probably find one that is loose.
Google: inside hydraulic lifters

There are a few things that can go wrong with a lifter, broken spring or valve issue, this collapses the lifter slightly until higher oil pressure is seen

Timing chains rattle

 

[Rearanger]

but the mechanical gauge i have reads between 40-60psi no matter the outside temp. BullFrog

That's a huge range for saying "no matter what the temp".

What is the idle pressure when hot/cold? What's the pressure at 1K/2K/3K rpm hot and cold?

Remember, psi is a measure of resistance to flow. Thicker oil (higher resistance) may not solve. An oil flush with additive may help instead.

 

[2002rangerv6xlt]

I've had a strange noise as well that I'm assuming is the timing chain. It only happens when there is sharp throttle changes, or sustained mid RPM full throttle but typically diminishes as RPM increases. I've opted to just go ahead and change the timing chain and will let you know if that solves my problem. That job is a huge pain in the ass but will cost under $100 in parts when purchased from Rock Auto. The other thing you may want to consider is getting your oil tested, check out Blackstone Labs. It costs about $25 and can give you some indication of how shot your engine is and what the problem could be. Save a sample from your next change even if you're undecided.

I would also stick to the stock viscosity oil but try using some mystery oil prior to your next change. Maybe throw in some Lucas along with the new oil. Worth a gamble.

 

[BullFrog13x4]

That's a huge range for saying "no matter what the temp".

What is the idle pressure when hot/cold? What's the pressure at 1K/2K/3K rpm hot and cold?

Remember, psi is a measure of resistance to flow. Thicker oil (higher resistance) may not solve. An oil flush with additive may help instead.

Actually, if you read that; i said outside temp. To be more specific i should of said outside air temp, and that the oil psi doesn't change when the outside air temp does.

I think you got confused with the outside air temp i was talking about and the engine temp. I do not think the engine temp was much of a factor considering the noise was there when the outside air temp was above 20 deg and not there when the outside air temp was below 20 deg weather i had just started the engine cold or ran it for an hour. When the outside air temp is above 20 deg, the noise is there only at idle and when i raise the rpm's above 1.5k or more and hold it there for a few seconds the noise will go away completely; even at idle for a few minutes then it comes back; remember the noise is only there when the outside air temp is above 20 deg. I know this is very strange; i have been a ASE master certified auto tech for over 15 years, i have worked with Firestone and Goodyear and i have never seen anything like this before.

I do realize that the outside air temp and the oil psi don't really have anything to do with each-other especially when the engine is at operating temp (195 deg or more). So i know i am taking a stab in the dark with using thicker oil, but if this engine is shot then what could it hurt?

 

[BullFrog13x4]

I've had a strange noise as well that I'm assuming is the timing chain. It only happens when there is sharp throttle changes, or sustained mid RPM full throttle but typically diminishes as RPM increases. I've opted to just go ahead and change the timing chain and will let you know if that solves my problem. That job is a huge pain in the ass but will cost under $100 in parts when purchased from Rock Auto. The other thing you may want to consider is getting your oil tested, check out Blackstone Labs. It costs about $25 and can give you some indication of how shot your engine is and what the problem could be. Save a sample from your next change even if you're undecided.

I would also stick to the stock viscosity oil but try using some mystery oil prior to your next change. Maybe throw in some Lucas along with the new oil. Worth a gamble.

I was thinking the same thing with my noise up until the outside air temp went down below 20 deg and the noise was gone. At that point i pretty much ruled out the timing chain because cold outside air would not make the chain fix its self, although i may be wrong as most of the other symptoms are pointing toward the timing chain or a collapsed lifter.

Definitely let me know what you find when you dig into that timing chain.

I am also starting to think i may have a air conditioner compressor that could be the source of this noise. I was looking at the belt the other day and noticed that at one time some moron had put a small weld/ bead on the clutch witch had connected the clutch solid but had since broke free and it has me thinking that there might be some water in it and when the outside air temp goes below 20 deg it is frozen and therefore does not make noise, i have to wait until the outside air temp goes back up to test this. it will be easy to test though. I will start the engine to make sure the noise is there and then shut it down take the belt off and then restart without the belt, if the noise goes away then viola i found my noise.

With someone putting a weld on that clutch it tells me that the compressor is bad regardless of weather it is the source of the noise or not.

 

[Rearanger]

Actually, if you read that; i said outside temp. To be more specific i should of said outside air temp, and that the oil psi doesn't change when the outside air temp does.

Of course it's "outside" temp. Could have said ambient. Cold engine IS the ambient temp and the cold psi should be higher. Hot is obviously hot engine when psi should be less depending on rpm.

Trying to figure out if your gauge is operating correctly.

 

[BullFrog13x4]

Ok, I have an update. I found that weld on the A/C clutch, and a replacement bypass bracket. I think my noise is coming from the inner parts of the A/C clutch possibly the bearing. I found a few photos.


The A/C clutch breakdown


The A/C clutch breakdown with the welded area pointed out


The Bypass bracket #34184 available at AutoZone

I will update again after i replace the A/C compressor with that bracket. I am pretty certain that the weld being broken and the extra clearance in the internal parts of that A/C clutch is were my noise is coming from. Once i confirm this i will post the results.

 

[locovaca]

You shouldn't need a bypass bracket. Some Rangers came from the factory without AC, so you just need a different idler pulley and belt. That may work out to be less than the bypass bracket, and it's one less thing to (marginally) give you drag.

The Idler pulley is a little bigger and the belt just goes straight over from it to the power steering pump.

 

[BullFrog13x4]

You shouldn't need a bypass bracket. Some Rangers came from the factory without AC, so you just need a different idler pulley and belt. That may work out to be less than the bypass bracket, and it's one less thing to (marginally) give you drag.

The Idler pulley is a little bigger and the belt just goes straight over from it to the power steering pump.

actually on my 91 3.0, it has the alt, the water pump, and the A/C on one belt; with the power steering and water pump on another. And the reason i am going with that bracket is so when ordering belts in the future they can be of factory size instead of trying to find or remember the size if i were to use a smaller belt.

I am not sure when they changed the belts over to a single?

 

[locovaca]

Huh, the first online diagram I looked up showed the 91 as having a single belt. Regardless, you can do the same thing on your 91, and you may not have to change your Idler pulley but instead just remove the secondary idler:

With AC:

Without AC:

And those belts are of factory size. You simply order belts for a Ranger "without Air Conditioning." Like I said, an A/C-less Ranger was a factory option.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1137765&parttype=8900

Notice the ones that say "Without Air Conditioning"

 

[BullFrog13x4]

Huh, the first online diagram I looked up showed the 91 as having a single belt. Regardless, you can do the same thing on your 91, and you may not have to change your Idler pulley but instead just remove the secondary idler:

With AC:

Without AC:

And those belts are of factory size. You simply order belts for a Ranger "without Air Conditioning." Like I said, an A/C-less Ranger was a factory option.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?carcode=1137765&parttype=8900

Notice the ones that say "Without Air Conditioning"

you don't happen to have a part # for those belts do you?

My local parts stores don't get very specific about witch belt is witch when i look for those, there is a with A/C belt(65"), and a without A/C belt(44.5" 6 rib #445k6) and then another UN-specified belt(46.06" 4 rib #460k4): the without A/C and the UN-specified belts look to be 1/2" longer or shorter than each-other. I am guessing that when there is no A/C both belts can be the same lenth(one 4 and one 6 rib)? I would definitely rather run without the idler and A/C bypass bracket if i can figure out the factory part number for the with-out A/C alt belt. I always find my parts before i go to the parts store so that i don't have to argue with the teller and i get in and out in a snap, normally with the right part the first time. I am guessing i need the 445k6 (alt) and the 460k4 (pwr strng), can anyone confirm this?

I have always found it fun when the teller asks you; what year make and model is this part for? and i respond with; I need an intake gasket for a 89 mustang 3.0 and a oil filter for a 91 ranger 3.0 and a cam synchronizer for a 97 explorer and a set of front brakes for a 98 Cherokee with a d-30 and this is all going on a 1991 2wd ford ranger with a 5spd and 3.0. The teller normally replies with, huh? let me get the other guy, he knows more about this stuff; 4 hours later i don't end up with any of my parts because i got tired of arguing. Went back the next day with part numbers and got everything within 20 min. of course this is a hypothetical example, but trust me it goes kind of like that. Most of the parts for the 3.0 engine that i described are interchangeable (ei: intake gaskets, oil filter, etc.) so arguing over what year it fits at the parts store is a mute point, especially when they look it up under multiple vehicles and they show the same part numbers.

 

[locovaca]

you don't happen to have a part # for those belts do you?

My local parts stores don't get very specific about witch belt is witch when i look for those, there is a with A/C belt(65"), and a without A/C belt(44.5" 6 rib #445k6) and then another UN-specified belt(46.06" 4 rib #460k4): the without A/C and the UN-specified belts look to be 1/2" longer or shorter than each-other. I am guessing that when there is no A/C both belts can be the same lenth(one 4 and one 6 rib)? I would definitely rather run without the idler and A/C bypass bracket if i can figure out the factory part number for the with-out A/C alt belt. I always find my parts before i go to the parts store so that i don't have to argue with the teller and i get in and out in a snap, normally with the right part the first time. I am guessing i need the 445k6 (alt) and the 460k4 (pwr strng), can anyone confirm this?

Well, those part numbers somewhat line up with the AC Delco belts at Rock (the link I posted before). The 4K460 drives the Power Steering and is irrelevant in the AC discussion. The 6K450 drives the alternator without AC.

Take a look at that Rock Auto Link I posted, they explain what each belt is for.

I have always found it fun when the teller asks you; what year make and model is this part for? and i respond with; I need an intake gasket for a 89 mustang 3.0 and a oil filter for a 91 ranger 3.0 and a cam synchronizer for a 97 explorer and a set of front brakes for a 98 Cherokee with a d-30 and this is all going on a 1991 2wd ford ranger with a 5spd and 3.0. The teller normally replies with, huh? let me get the other guy, he knows more about this stuff; 4 hours later i don't end up with any of my parts because i got tired of arguing. Went back the next day with part numbers and got everything within 20 min. of course this is a hypothetical example, but trust me it goes kind of like that. Most of the parts for the 3.0 engine that i described are interchangeable (ei: intake gaskets, oil filter, etc.) so arguing over what year it fits at the parts store is a mute point, especially when they look it up under multiple vehicles and they show the same part numbers.

That's why I don't shop at parts stores and get everything I can at Rock Auto. Their prices are better, their shipping is reasonable and fast, and there's no hassle.

 

[BullFrog13x4]

Update:

I went to work on this truck this weekend. I found that the power steering pump bracket was loose and tightened it. I took the alt belt off (had to order the w/o A/C belt). Then i started the engine and let it run. The outside temp was around 30 deg. The oil pressure was around 50 psi when first started at idle. After running for around an hour at idle with around 40 psi(oil), it started to faintly tick. So i went back with a stethoscope to try to find it and it sounds more pronounced in the front of the engine, I think i am back to either a lifter or timing chain.

I had to stop for the day as it was already late when i started and it was dark by this point. I am going to proceed with checking the valve to rocker clearance with a feeler gauge. The specs say there should be between 2.5 - 5.0 thousands of clearance. Since this requires me to put the crank on TDC (top dead center), i will also check the timing chain with the spark plugs out and the trans in neutral; rotate the crank clockwise and counter clockwise back and forth while watching the ignition rotor/ or rocker arms for movement accordingly. If there is play in the timing chain then you will be able to move the crank without the rotor/rocker moving. I might even hear it if it is extremely worn out.

I will be checking on the valve to rocker clearance and the timing chain tomorrow. I will update after i narrow the problem down.