Who here likes the AR platform?

[Ranger44]

The AR platform is a taste. They are a very fun and easily changed to a specific persons needs. They can be had usually at a lower cost than anything else in the same class. Look at the price of the SCAR platform, or M1A's......

And to squash the legends, the best way to get a rifle is not go buy a Rock River or Bushmaster, or god forbid a DPMS, but to visit a site like Bravo Company, or Palmetto State Armory and purchase complete lowers and uppers and mate them together yourself. You'll end up WAY ahead in the quality department and usually spend the same if not less.

My build is an example of me knowing what I wanted in a rifle, and putting together some of the best names. Noveske, Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT, Spikes Tactical, etc.

Point of the story is, I could build a better rifle than any off the self gunstore AR for right around $800. That's a rock solid, very reliable, smooth shooter, and accurate starter AR.

 

[AngryLepercon]

The AR platform is a taste. They are a very fun and easily changed to a specific persons needs. They can be had usually at a lower cost than anything else in the same class. Look at the price of the SCAR platform, or M1A's......

And to squash the legends, the best way to get a rifle is not go buy a Rock River or Bushmaster, or god forbid a DPMS, but to visit a site like Bravo Company, or Palmetto State Armory and purchase complete lowers and uppers and mate them together yourself. You'll end up WAY ahead in the quality department and usually spend the same if not less.

My build is an example of me knowing what I wanted in a rifle, and putting together some of the best names. Noveske, Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT, Spikes Tactical, etc.

Point of the story is, I could build a better rifle than any off the self gunstore AR for right around $800. That's a rock solid, very reliable, smooth shooter, and accurate starter AR.

I understand.


I use rifles as firearms as an investment. Cheaper to get a rifle then an ounce of gold. I get a discount cause im the leprechaun and gold is still high.


Your built (best parts available) vs. Something that says COLT on every part. Ten years down the road value wise the built rig is damn near worthless.

I bought the .22 as a shooter because it was a steal at $350. And cheap to run 1k rounds through it.

If I was looking for a toy. I would definitely build my own though and it would be a 7.62.

 

[The Jester Race]

How did I know that magazines were going to be the first comment I received. My magazines:

1 - 30rd Thermold
1 - C Products Aluminum 30 rd
2 - C Products SS 10 rd
3 - El cheapo Sportsman's Guide steel 10-20 rd (I've all but thrown these out)

They all do the exact same thing in my rifle, regardless of how they are loaded. All but the 3 cheapos work fine in dad's AR-15, and they work better in his than they do in mine. I've also tried a couple of dad's mags (can't recall brands) with the same results.

1) I hear you about breaking it in but I've already shot a couple hundred rounds through it, and the amount that it happens is unacceptable even for a new rifle. Comparing it to dad's again but his never did this straight out of the box.

2) I've tried about 4 different brands of ammo with the same results. Dad's shot my worst ammo and it worked fine.

3-4) I've checked these out once, but I'll certainly look again

5-6) I partially suspect this. After purchasing I had the original sight style gas block replaced with a low profile version to use with a scope (flattop upper). I had this problem before the block was replaced, but that doesn't mean it was lined up right from the factory. It is the 16" barrell, just not colt.

7) I also suspect this, but not sure how to check that it is the right one. As mentioned above it's 16" barrel and had fixed stock.

8) Ordered a JARD adjustable single stage last Friday. So if that's an issue not, it shouldn't be for long.

9) Will check it as soon as I have a chance.

10) Seems to be good there. I'll double check on the magazine, but I'm 99% certain it's good.

First thing we need to do is determine if it is short stroking or if it is a failure to feed.
Failure to feed is a magazine issue.
Short stroking is a gas issue.
Once we determine what the issue is we can start working toward the solution.

Short stroking (Failure to cycle)
Short stroking on an AR rifle is when the bolt carrier group does not cycle far enough to the rear to be able to strip a round from the magazine and chamber the next round. After firing a round, you will notice that the bolt is closed on an empty chamber, thereby forcing you to manually cycle the rifle to feed the next round. This occurs when there is an issue with the gas system.
To see if you have a short stroking problem and not a “Failure to Feed” problem, please perform this test first (assuming your bolt catch and magazine is functioning properly). Insert one round into a magazine that you know to be performing well. Insert the magazine into the magazine well, pull the charging handle to the rear, then release the charging to load the round into the chamber. Safely discharge that round. After the round has been fired the bolt should automatically be locked to the rear by the bolt catch and the empty magazine. If the bolt is closed on the empty chamber, then it did not travel far enough to the rear to be held by the bolt catch, and your rifle has short stroked.
Short stroking is a symptom of a problem with the gas system in the rifle. There are 7 parts of the AR gas system. In the upper receiver group, you have the barrel (gas port), front sight base, and gas tube. In the bolt carrier group you have the gas key, the carrier, the bolt, and the gas rings.

Assuming the rifle was running correctly previously (in the exact configuration it is currently) The following is a basic trouble-shooting checklist.
1) Ammo issue ? Commercial ammo does not run as hot as Milspec ammo, and some lots of commercial ammo may not be strong enough to cycle the weapon. Try a completely different type of ammo. If the weapon works correctly then you may have some bad ammo. This is becoming a more common problem with some of the low cost imported ammo, especially with milspec sized gas ports.
2) Lube and clean the rifle. Pull out your GI manual and properly clean the weapon. As a note, a little bit of dirt and carbon should not stop the proper cycling of your rifle.
3) Check the carrier (gas) key. If the carrier key is loose, the gas system will not hold enough pressure to fully cycle the weapon. Try a different carrier that you know to be working in another properly functioning weapon. If the weapon runs well with the other carrier, you may have an issue with your carrier key. The carrier key bolts should not be loose. It should be staked from the factory. Check to make sure the bolts securing the key did not rotate past the staking. The bolts should be torqued to 35-40 in/lbs.
4) Check the gas rings. (or just go ahead and change them – they are very inexpensive) Mythbuster: The gaps in the gas rings do not need to be staggered. I know we were all taught otherwise in recruit training, and yes I know it says they must be staggered in the GI manual. But this is a myth. As a note; it will not hurt the system to stagger the gaps in the rings, but if this single change makes the difference – you need new gas rings ASAP. Inspect the rings, make sure there are 3 of them, and that they are installed properly. Disassemble the carrier group, insert the bolt into the carrier, and hold the carrier vertically in the air. The bolt should not fall out of the carrier.
5) Change the gas tube.

Failure to Feed
A failure to feed initially looks similar to a short stroking problem. A round is fired, a spent case is extracted and ejected, but the bolt is closed on an empty chamber. The difference with a failure to feed is that the bolt did travel far enough to the rear to chamber a round. But it did not, and it is now closed on an empty chamber. Generally speaking, this is most often caused by a defective magazine (specifically a problem with the feed lips). You might also notice 2 dents in the casing that is still loaded in the magazine from bolt over-ride. The solution is to replace the magazine. USGI magazines are class 9 expendable and should be replaced when defective.

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/AR15-Troubleshooting-Tec-t5332.html

Have you tried shooting your upper on your dads lower?

Lol no need to get so technical. He understood my point and meaning.

Just because he understood it doesn't make it right. It's just one of those things that drive me ****ing nuts. Like when people put u instead of typing you, or ne instead of any. Or when people use the wrong there/their/they're.

I understand.


I use rifles as firearms as an investment. Cheaper to get a rifle then an ounce of gold. I get a discount cause im the leprechaun and gold is still high.


Your built (best parts available) vs. Something that says COLT on every part. Ten years down the road value wise the built rig is damn near worthless.

I bought the .22 as a shooter because it was a steal at $350. And cheap to run 1k rounds through it.

If I was looking for a toy. I would definitely build my own though and it would be a 7.62.

Not true at all. Sure it may not be as easy to sell. You need a build sheet and a buyer who knows AR's. Ten years down the road your Colt will be worth a grand, same as it is today. Ten years down the road my built rig will be worth 2K, same as it is today.
Ever since the Fed assault weapons ban expired in 2004 there has been a huge influx of AR manufacturers to the market. And that is not likely to change any time soon.

Here is a short list of manufacturers.
1 Adams Arms
2 ADCOR Defence
3 Addax
4 ADEQ Firearms Company
5 Advanced Defense Sysems (ADS)
6 Aeroprecision
7 AGP Arms
8 Alberta Tactical Rifle Supply
9 Alexander Arms
10 All Weapons One
11 Allstar Tactical LLC
12 Alpha Shooting Sports
13 Ambush Firearms
14 Ameetech*
15 American Precision Arms
16 American Spirit Arms
17 American Tacitcal Imports (ATI)
18 American Weapon Systems
19 Anderson Manufacturing
20 Anvil Arms*
21 AR 15 Plus
22 AR Permformance
23 AR15 Depot
24 AR15.com Armament Rifle
25 AR57 Center
26 Ardel Engineering (AE)
27 Ares Arms LLC.
28 Ares Defense
29 Arizona Armory (AZ)
30 Armalite
31 Armitage International LTD
32 ARMS LLC
33 Arm's Tech LTD
34 Astra Arms
35 ATT Tactical
36 AXTS Weapons
37 Balimoy
38 Barnes Precision
39 Barret Firearms Manufacturing
40 Bartlett Enterprises
41 Battle Born Rifles
42 Battle Rifle Company
43 Bazooka Brothers Manufacturing
44 Black Dawn
45 Black Diamond SOCOM Mfg.
46 Black Gold cusom Arms
47 Black Heart International
48 Black Hole Weaponry
49 Black Rain
50 Black Scorpion Firearms
51 Black Weapons Armory
52 Blackthorne
53 BMG Inc
54 Bohica Arms
55 Bradley Arms
56 Branch Custom Weaponry
57 Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM)
58 Bushmaster Firearms International
59 C3 Defense
60 Cavalry Arms*
61 Centurion Arms
62 Centurion Tactical
63 Century
64 Century Arms
65 Charles Daly
66 Chattahoochee Gun Works LLC
67 Chengdu Hongguag Machinery Manufacturing Co Ltd
68 Chiappa Firearms
69 Christensen Arms
70 Christian Armory Works (CAW)
71 CIV Tactical
72 CMMG
73 CMS*
74 Cobra Tactical
75 Colt's
76 Compass Lake Engineering (CLE)
77 Conquest Arms
78 Controlled Chaos Arms
79 Core15
80 Crusader Weaponry
81 D.S. Arms
82 Dalphon Firearms*
83 Daniel Defense
84 Dedicated Technology
85 Delaware Machinery
86 Delta Arms Company
87 Del-Ton
88 Denny's Guns
89 Detroit Gun Works
90 Diemaco*
91 Dlask Arms
92 Double Diamond Law Enforcement Supply
93 Double Star
94 DPMS / Panther Arms
95 Dreadnaught Industries
96 Duty Precision Machinery Shops (DPM Shops)
97 Eagle Arms
98 East Coast Gun Sales"
99 Echigoya
100 Edward Arms
101 Elite Arms
102 Essential Arms
103 Fabrique Nationale
104 Firebird Precision
105 Frankford Arsenal
106 Franklin Armory
107 Frozen North Firearms*
108 Fulton Armory
109 GA Precision (GAP)
110 Galati International
111 GAR Arms
112 Global Tactical
113 GM Corp.*
114 Good Time Outdoors Inc
115 Grenadier Precision *
116 Group Industries*
117 GT Vertical Concepts (GTVC)
118 Gun Smoke Enterprises
119 H&H Enterprises
120 Harrington and Richarson (H&R)*
121 Hatcher Gun Company
122 Head Down Products
123 Hecklor and Koch
124 Henderson Defense
125 Hera Arms
126 Hesse
127 High Mountain Hunting Supply
128 High Standard Manufacturing Company
129 Hogan guns
130 Holland Gun Works
131 Houlding Precision
132 Huldra Arms
133 Integrity Arms and Survival
134 Iron Ridge Arms
135 JARD Inc.
136 JD Machine
137 JP Enterprises
138 JSE Surplus
139 Kaiser Defense
140 Kiss Tactical
141 Knights Armament Co. (KAC)
142 Kurt's Kustom Firearms (KKF)
143 L&G weaponry
144 Lancer Systems
145 Land Warfare Research Company (LWRC)
146 Lantac, UK
147 LAR Grizzly
148 LaRue
149 Lauer Custom Weaponry (LCW)
150 LBR Arms
151 Legion Firearms
152 Les Bauer
153 Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT)
154 Liberty Arms
155 Liberty Tactical
156 Loki
157 Lone Wolf Distributing
158 M Weapons
159 Mack Gwinn Industries (?) (MGI)
160 Magpul
161 Mattel Corp.*
162 McKay Enterprises LLC.
163 Mean Metal Inc
164 Medesha Fireamrs
165 Mega Arms
166 Model 1 Sales
167 Mohawk Armory
168 Molot
169 Mossberg
170 National Ordinance Company
171 New Evolution Military Ordinance (NEMO)
172 New Frontier Armory
173 Next Generation Arms
174 Nodak
175 Nordic Components
176 Norinco
177 North East Arms
178 Noveske
179 Oberland Arms
180 Olympic Arms
181 Palmetto State Armory
182 Palmetto State Defense
183 Para - USA
184 Patriot Defense Arms
185 Patriot Ordinance (POF)
186 Plum Crazy
187 Precision Firearms
188 Precision Guncraft
189 Predator Custom Shop
190 Predator Tactical
191 PRI Uppers
192 Primary Weapons Systems (PWS)
193 ProArms
194 PWA*
195 Quality Arms
196 Quentin Defence
197 R Guns
198 Rainer Arms
199 Ratworx
200 RCM Gun Parts
201 Red Jacket Firearms
202 Red X Arms
203 Remington
204 RGM inc
205 Rifle Dynamics
206 RifleGear
207 RND
208 Rock Island Arsenal
209 Rock River Arms
210 Rocky Mountain Arms
211 Roggio Arsenal
212 Ruger
213 S I Defense
214 Saber Tactical
215 Sabre Defence*
216 Scorpion Tactical
217 Seekins Precision
218 Senda Corp*
219 Sendra
220 SGW*
221 Shadow Ops Weaponry
222 Sharps Rifle Company/Sharps rifle
223 Sig Arms
224 Sionics
225 Smith & Wesson
226 SNS Industries*
227 SOCOM Mfg.
228 Sog Arms
229 Sonju Defense
230 Southern Gun Co.
231 Specialized Dynamics
232 Specialized Tacitcal Systems
233 Spike's Tactical
234 Stag Arms
235 State of the Art Arms (SOTA)
236 Sterling Arsenal
237 Stinger Arms
238 Sun Devil
239 Superior Arms
240 Suplus Ammo and Arms
241 Tactial Weapons Solutions
242 Tactical Ammunition
243 Tactical Arms Manufacturing
244 Tactical Innovations
245 Tactical Machining
246 Tactics LLC*
247 Templar Custom
248 Templar Tactical Arms
249 Teppo Jutsu LLC.
250 Thompson Machine
251 Thor Glocal Defense
252 Timberwolf Tactical
253 Titan Ordinance
254 TKS Engineering
255 TNW Firearms
256 Tommy15
257 Top Notch Tacitcal (TNT)
258 Triplett Firearms
259 Tromix
260 U T Arms
261 Umbrella Corporation Weapons Research Group
262 US Fireams Academy
263 USA Tactical Firearms
264 Valkyrie Arms
265 Vidalia Police Supply
266 Vltor
267 Vulcan Armament
268 WFC Proshop
269 White Oaks Armament
270 Wilson Combat
271 Windham Weaponry
272 Xtreme Machinig
273 Yankee Hill Machine (YHM)
274 Z M Weapons
275 Zel Custom Manufacturing
276 Zombie Defense

My point is the AR 15 isn't going away any time soon, and high end parts demand a premium price now and they are going to demand a premium price 10 or 20 years down the road too.

-Jester

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

K lmao

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Not true at all. Sure it may not be as easy to sell. You need a build sheet and a buyer who knows AR's. Ten years down the road your Colt will be worth a grand, same as it is today. Ten years down the road my built rig will be worth 2K, same as it is today.
Ever since the Fed assault weapons ban expired in 2004 there has been a huge influx of AR manufacturers to the market. And that is not likely to change any time soon.

Its like selling a hotrod vs a nice original, you will get more but you have to find the guy that appreciates it and will spend a premium for it. The crowd that will go "ooo a Colt" is a lot bigger than the crowd that will freak out over your combination of parts. And even then I think the world is full of critics, if someone else has built something similar they are going to nitpick your choice of widgets.

Good job on the longest on topic post I can remember ever seeing too.

My brother has a DPMS, it is a very fun to shoot and accurate gun. He saved his Cabelas points and got it for like $150 on sale, I am thinking about doing something similar. I just isn't worth $700-$2k to punch a .003" bigger hole in a piece of paper than my $100 .22. I thought about building a 6.8 and if I hit the lottery I still might but you can't hardly get them under a grand... you can get a pretty swanky bolt gun for less than that.

 

[AngryLepercon]

Edit: has nothing to do and would get called out on it. I'm wrong, your right.

 

[MPRanger]

[/IMG]

I don't like the AR platform at all either angry. lol

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

Mp- your avitar pic turns me on. It's very sexy.

 

[MPRanger]

Yeah. I don't expect to ever get one like that again.

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

No no no! You've gotta surpass that stud and look for one 3" bigger! After all 1" is the difference between you calling her and her calling you! So you've gotta shoot for 3 more inches so all the ladies call you!

 

[JoshT]

1) Ammo issue ? Commercial ammo does not run as hot as Milspec ammo, and some lots of commercial ammo may not be strong enough to cycle the weapon. Try a completely different type of ammo. If the weapon works correctly then you may have some bad ammo. This is becoming a more common problem with some of the low cost imported ammo, especially with milspec sized gas ports.
2) Lube and clean the rifle. Pull out your GI manual and properly clean the weapon. As a note, a little bit of dirt and carbon should not stop the proper cycling of your rifle.
3) Check the carrier (gas) key. If the carrier key is loose, the gas system will not hold enough pressure to fully cycle the weapon. Try a different carrier that you know to be working in another properly functioning weapon. If the weapon runs well with the other carrier, you may have an issue with your carrier key. The carrier key bolts should not be loose. It should be staked from the factory. Check to make sure the bolts securing the key did not rotate past the staking. The bolts should be torqued to 35-40 in/lbs.
4) Check the gas rings. (or just go ahead and change them – they are very inexpensive) Mythbuster: The gaps in the gas rings do not need to be staggered. I know we were all taught otherwise in recruit training, and yes I know it says they must be staggered in the GI manual. But this is a myth. As a note; it will not hurt the system to stagger the gaps in the rings, but if this single change makes the difference – you need new gas rings ASAP. Inspect the rings, make sure there are 3 of them, and that they are installed properly. Disassemble the carrier group, insert the bolt into the carrier, and hold the carrier vertically in the air. The bolt should not fall out of the carrier.
5) Change the gas tube.

Definitely short stroking, the bolt practically never locks back. No point in assuming that it was working correctly previously, it's worked the same the whole time I've owned it. I've tried at least 5 different brands of ammo, both 55gr and 62gr as well.

It's a little early to tell (haven't had a chance to fire it) but it appears that #2 may have been the issue. I think I'm going to have to change gun oils. At first I shrugged off 2 because I know I lubed the rifle, don't have a GI manual to go by, but I know I lubed it. With that in mind, I disassembled the rifle to check the gas key and and gas rings. I though the carrier key was tight and staked, sure enough the bolts were tight and staked. I wasn't sure about the gas rings so I disassembled it to check. The rings passed the check I found online for them, but I was shocked as how dry the internals of the bolt carrier were when I knew that I had disassembled and lubed them good not long ago (since the previous time I shot it). So I did some checking on the lube I used (Rem Oil withe Teflon) turns out it has a problem with drying out quickly. Rubbed some Hoppes No. 9 lubricant on there (only other thing I have in hand), reassembled, and cycled the action a few time by hand. Well with an empty magazine installed it locked open every time, and it wouldn't do that before. Still need to put it to the test but fingers are crossed.

I dropped the rifle off with dad a couple hours ago. He's retired so he has a lot more time to play than I do, as a full time worker and part time student I don't have much time. Since I work on a federal installation I can't exactly carry the thing to work with me, so I never know when I'll be able to hit the range. He's installing the JARD trigger for me and is going to take it and his AR to the range and do some trouble shooting.

 

[Ranger44]

Don't get me wrong, colt is great, but its not end all. Even then, colt has their critics.

Like I said, I can build a better rifle for less.

Trust me, I can sell my rifle for what its worth to somebody, cause I know the right group of people, even then I've seen reputable shops sell complete garbage to a customer for $1500 while they would have been better off going to Walmart and buying a base colt with carry handle for $1050. But then I can build a rifle on par to that for $200 less.

It's a complete lack of education to both shops and the consumer. Sad really, especially when I see a bushy or DPMS decked out with a cheap rail and all sorts of Chinese made and gawdy looking lights, lasers , and red dots being sold for WAY too much.

 

[Ranger44]

[/IMG]

I don't like the AR platform at all either angry. lol

Sweeeeet

 

[AngryLepercon]

I was just stating a fact that a Colt will hold its value.

Your built with the best parts at the time AR will be worth dick because they will not long be the best parts after a peroid of time.

I understand building is cheaper with better parts but when it comes resale. Built rifles are a dime a dozen.

All I was saying.

 

[The Jester Race]

I was just stating a fact that a Colt will hold its value.

Your built with the best parts at the time AR will be worth dick because they will not long be the best parts after a peroid of time.

I understand building is cheaper with better parts but when it comes resale. Built rifles are a dime a dozen.

All I was saying.

You are right, your Colt will hold its value.....and so will any other AR-15 out there.
You are delusional if you think just because your AR-15 has a pony stamped on the side and mine does not that mine will depreciate and yours will not. Colt's are worth what they are and what they will be because they are good guns, not because of their roll mark.

My Frankenstein rig, build with high end parts, is and will be worth more then your Colt because it is superior to your Colt. Even though my high end parts may not be top shelf product tomorrow, my AR-15 will still be superior to your factory Colt. And the market deems that a superior rifle/part/product demands a higher price.

You say that built rifles are a dime a dozen, lets look at Colts production numbers.

AR-15 TYPE RIFLES MANUFACTURED - YEAR 2000
# of Rifles Manufacturer
39,932 BUSHMASTER FIREARMS, INC.
29,950 COLT'S MANUFACTURING CO.
8,475 ARMALITE, INC.
5,869 DPMS ARMS, INC.
3,910 OLYMPIC ARMS, INC.
2,964 PWA, INC.
2,614 PROFESSIONAL ORDNANCE, INC.
967 HESSE, LTD.
191 ROCK RIVER ARMS, INC.
6 ALLAN P. ZITTA

94,878 TOTAL

AR-15 TYPE RIFLES MANUFACTURED - YEAR 1999
# of Rifles Manufacturer
64,506 BUSHMASTER FIREARMS, INC.
29,143 COLT'S MANUFACTURING CO.
8,018 ARMALITE, INC.
7,456 OLYMPIC ARMS, INC.
6,903 DPMS ARMS, INC.
1,756 PROFESSIONAL ORDNANCE, INC.
996 KNIGHTS MANUFACTURING CO.
606 HESSE, LTD.
330 ROCK RIVER ARMS, INC.
110 WILSON COMBAT
87 JP ENTERPRISES, INC
26 ALLAN P. ZITTA

119,937 TOTAL

So in the years of 1999 and 2000 Colt produced roughly 30,000 AR-15's a year. And if we extrapolate that out to the 53 years that Colt has be producing an AR-15 rifle, that is 1,590,000 Colt AR-15's produced over the years. Now we know that Colt didn't quite hit 30,000 in 1999 and 2000, and we can assume that they had some slow years too, so lets take that number down to 1.2 million.

It has been estimated that there are less then 10 million AR-15's in existence.

So roughly 12% of all AR-15's in existence are Colts.

Built rigs have become far more prevalent in the last 5 years, and it would be damn near impossible to pin down a number, but I believe that it is safe to assume that the numbers don't come even remotely close to the production numbers of one of the largest firearms manufacturers in the world.


I am not belittling you for choosing to invest in firearms or for choosing Colt AR-15's. Firearms are great investments, as they will all ways be worth something, especially in these times of economic unrest and possible collapse. God forbid.
I'm just saying that your views of Frankenstein AR-15's are skewed.

-Jester