running a little hot in idle

[shadetree]

That was a stupid uninformed remark directed at ME! Big JIm

Big Jim and 85_Ranger4x4... Why argue? Why not give the best advice you have and allow others to do the same and then SHUT THE HELL UP!
It ain't about who is the best...It is about getting the guy back on the road. And he ain't interested in meaningless posts.

Got a little testy, did we Big??shady

 

[Big Jim M]

A 50/50 mixture of water and ethylene glycol has better heat transfer characteristics than pure ethylene glycol. So, I disagree with using 100% ethylene glycol. The cooling system is used to cool the oil (and tranny ATF if it's an automatic), which generally runs hotter than the coolant. So, pure ethylene glycol can run hotter, but the oil & ATF can't.

Howdy Bob Yep! Everything I have read over the years says better heat transfer characteristics. However the difference is hardly measurable. In actual use in a vehicle no difference is seen. EVERYTHING lasts the same. I'm guessing only a lab could find the heat transfer difference.
And BTW, I have never had to replace a coolant pump in a ride that was running pure ethylene glycol.
I don't advise our northern guys to use the pure stuff because at around -10 the pure stuff gets a bit crunchy...not frozen but sort of "slushy".
I have had my ride in the north in winter but all I have seen is -15/18 and had no bad results.
Big JIm

 

[Big Jim M]

Howdy Shady

Got a little testy, did we Big??shady

Somehow I KNEW you'd show up! Yeah, just a bit.
Big JIm

 

[Bob Ayers]

Howdy Bob Yep! Everything I have read over the years says better heat transfer characteristics. However the difference is hardly measurable. In actual use in a vehicle no difference is seen. EVERYTHING lasts the same. I'm guessing only a lab could find the heat transfer difference.
And BTW, I have never had to replace a coolant pump in a ride that was running pure ethylene glycol.
I don't advise our northern guys to use the pure stuff because at around -10 the pure stuff gets a bit crunchy...not frozen but sort of "slushy".
I have had my ride in the north in winter but all I have seen is -15/18 and had no bad results.
Big JIm

Well Big Jim, I hate to disagree with you again, but the ethylene glycol/water mixture greatly affects the heat transfer characteristics:

"The specific heat capacity, viscosity and specific weight of water and ethylene glycol solutions varies significantly with the percent of ethylene glycol and the temperature of the fluid. The properties differs so much from clean water that a heat transfer systems with ethylene glycol should be calculated thoroughly for the actual temperatures and solutions."


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

That was a stupid uninformed remark directed at ME!
Since our lil guys have a SWITCH that puts the gauge at 1/2 way when 7-1/2 pounds of oil pressureis reached HOW would one KNOW what the pressure was and even if he did know the pressure how would he know THAT was low?

Did the quotation give it away? My point was to wait until it is dumping fluid (or locked up) is not the best way to decide if the engine has a cooling (or oiling) issue. If you fix it when the problem is small, you won't get stuck on the side of the highway somewhere when you have a big problem.

I have put in my .02, and since he didn't even have the A/C on it is pointless to discuss farther.

 

[fixizin]

A 50/50 mixture of water and ethylene glycol has better heat transfer characteristics than pure ethylene glycol. So, I disagree with using 100% ethylene glycol. The cooling system is used to cool the oil (and tranny ATF if it's an automatic), which generally runs hotter than the coolant. So, pure ethylene glycol can run hotter, but the oil & ATF can't.

Ah so... I've seen many explicit warnings against running 100% antifreeze, that makes sense as to why. Figure there HAD to be a good reason, as GIganto Chemical Corp. would LOVE to sell you those extra 5 quarts of green stuff.

OTOH, I'm willing to let Big Jim's truck be the testbed... I'm generous like that. ;')

Of course manual tranny runs ATF, but in that app the fluid lives an easy life, sloshing around at ambient pressure, getting only mild Joulean heating from churning gears, and cooling a few bearings... the auto trans just WORKS that poor red stuff non-stop! Might be time to re-visit that energy-wasting 1950s design.

 

[Big Jim M]

Well Big Jim, I hate to disagree with you again, but the ethylene glycol/water mixture greatly affects the heat transfer characteristics:

"The specific heat capacity, viscosity and specific weight of water and ethylene glycol solutions varies significantly with the percent of ethylene glycol and the temperature of the fluid. The properties differs so much from clean water that a heat transfer systems with ethylene glycol should be calculated thoroughly for the actual temperatures and solutions."


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

Ok Bob...You seem like a pretty sharp guy. Why doncha calculate it for me? It is easy to find printing that someone else put it...but I have actual experience since the mid sixties with using the straight stuff.. But I never have had an engine in Texas calculated before you are bout to..
Big JIm

 

[Bob Ayers]

Ok Bob...You seem like a pretty sharp guy. Why doncha calculate it for me? It is easy to find printing that someone else put it...but I have actual experience since the mid sixties with using the straight stuff.. But I never have had an engine in Texas calculated before you are bout to..
Big JIm

Ok, Big Jim, this is from the link I posted:

Notice in the table if you at 50% ethylene glycol to water, you reduce the heat capacity by 20%, going to 100% ethylene glycol you reduce the heat capacity by an additional 20%.

 

[Psychopete]

But if you were impressed with my Ranger, you will be really impressed with my 1961 Galaxie, which is ALL original in every way, never been restored. Original interior, paint, even the spare tire hasn't been moved since it was installed at the factory:

Wtf? You got a time machine or something? Let me borrow it.

I was always told never to run strait antifreeze because it would over heat my engine in the summer time. I just run 50/50 mix because it's simple. I suppose I just never thought anything of it.

What I got from Bob's graph is that the mixtures with more water increase the ability to absorb more heat (or increase the cooling capacity). Water must have the ability to store more heat as it increases temperature than just plain antifreeze.

One wouldn't want to run strait water because of the anti-corrosive agents in the anti-freeze, plus it does increase the boiling point of the water itself.

Strange way of thinking, yes, the anti-freeze lowers the freezing point and increases the boiling point, but cannot absorb heat as well as water..

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Pete

 

[shadetree]

You never want to run straight antifreeze. Doing this can CAUSE overheating. Glycols used in antifreezes DO NOT have the heat absorbtion characteristics need for proper cooling. I have seen some numbers giving etylene glycol 1/5(20%) the cooling capacity of water, especially in the small amounts used in auto engines. A 25/75 mix is sufficient in warmer temps. shady

 

[Big Jim M]

Guys I'm telling you this is engineers gobeldegook! The stuff works fine down here in the Texas heat and also on the Arabs desert! C'mon some of you fine Yankee engineers decode that mess Bob posted and describe the actions of ethylene glycol inside a coolant jacket!
Sure I can read EG ain't as good as water! But that said don't mean much unless we KNOW how deficient it MAY BE in place of water..
Since most of us already run 1/2 EG anyway what difference does the other 1/2 make... NONE THAT I HAVE SEEN IN NEARLY 50 YEARS!!
So take my 50 year experience and give me something I can see for sure that is opposite it..
C'mon Bob anyone can get someone else's work and post it on the tube... Figure it yourself and show me just zackly what the difference would be in MY VEHICLE if I added 1/2 water.. Or shut the hell up and leave my posts alone!!
Yeah Shady he makes me testy.
Big Jim

 

[Psychopete]

But that said don't mean much unless we KNOW how deficient it MAY BE in place of water..

Bob's graph depicts this, it looks like about a 25% decrease in cooling capacity for running strait antifreeze compared to the common 50/50 mix at 200°F.

(87 * .75 = 65)

That extra 25% would definitely be needed on the 2.9L..

I won't try it because I don't have $500+ to throw at a test to see if my engine overheats. It's simple enough to just put in the 50/50 mix and not think or worry about it IMO. Plus it's cheaper than strait antifreeze...

According to Australians, we're all "yanks".

Pete

 

[shadetree]

Big, this is common knowledge, it has nothing to do with engineers charts. A quick web search will verify. shady

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

One wouldn't want to run strait water because of the anti-corrosive agents in the anti-freeze, plus it does increase the boiling point of the water itself.

You can run water in a pinch, if you get overheat and get stuck in the middle of nowhere you can limp back to civilazation on it. It is all but free and available everywhere so you won't find much better of a crutch to get home on. I would not run it in something fulltime, but I would for a temporary bandaid.

 

[Big Jim M]

Bob's graph depicts this, it looks like about a 25% decrease in cooling capacity for running strait antifreeze compared to the common 50/50 mix at 200°F.

(87 * .75 = 65)

That extra 25% would definitely be needed on the 2.9L..

I won't try it because I don't have $500+ to throw at a test to see if my engine overheats. It's simple enough to just put in the 50/50 mix and not think or worry about it IMO. Plus it's cheaper than strait antifreeze...

According to Australians, we're all "yanks".

Pete

I agree! And I'm NOT trying to argue...except just a little bit... My question to BOB was SO WHAT? If both do take the heat out and the engine doesn't overheat..SO WHAT? All the engineer graphs show EG doesn't capture the same amount of heat...SO WHAT? It works fine in Texas and also on the Arab desert..
My point is the graph may be correct...to a point. But that point isn't reached in Texas or the Arab desert. as a coolant in lots and lots of vehicle engines pure EG works fine. I am testifying to this fact.
Now get me somebody that will testify to the opposite..other than a chart made by folks nobody knows.

I have only heard of one engine that froze and busted with pure EG in it...and that guy was in Alaska. He was on a Jeep site where I hang quite a bit.

In fact using pure EG one doesn't even need a pressure cap. The stuff doesn't boil until bout 450* is reached.. So you may lose an engine but you would KEEP the coolant.. Funny thought ain't it?

Just a guess but I'm thinking maybe my thermostat opens just a small amount wider to allow more flow than it would with straight water in the system.

Big JIm