Project OUTRANGEROUS 4.6L Install / Phase 2

[bobbywalter]

they fit fine in single cam form...when comparing the 4.6 to the 5.4. compared to a 302 windsor...they are more difficult in some ways depending on chassis.

but thats minor. the physical part is nothing.

what it costs to make power with these...thats the issue.




i recently seen another 5.4 in florida so they are out there.

theres a real nice b2 with a 5.4 i posted up a bit back as well

 

[RJAAAAAA]

4.6 vs 5.4

Question.

Why do people pick the 4.6 over the 5.4. Aren't they the same motor dimension wise?

Thanks for following the build it's been fun.
One of the reasons that a 4.6 is used is because of the size, 5.4 block is a little taller and you would need a little more creativity with the exhaust and steering linkage If you go with the 4v now that"s a BIG engine,but it can be done. As a matter of fact the builds on the web are mostly 4v 4.6's, they want that extra 50 horses. We gearheads seem to work out the physical stuff, it's the challenge I guess. I don't see many 5.4's around in our JY and i'm sure they cost more. The 2v 5.4 puts out 260hp and my 4.6 2v is 250 hp so not too much gain there either but you do have a few more cubes to work with. Most of the speed equipment for both of these engines is costly to the street guy but I'm not looking for a race truck, I just wanted something I could get my foot in once and a while.
Still looking for some pats info, ask around and let me know please.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Thanks for following the build it's been fun.
One of the reasons that a 4.6 is used is because of the size, 5.4 block is a little taller and you would need a little more creativity with the exhaust and steering linkage If you go with the 4v now that"s a BIG engine,but it can be done. As a matter of fact the builds on the web are mostly 4v 4.6's, they want that extra 50 horses. We gearheads seem to work out the physical stuff, it's the challenge I guess. I don't see many 5.4's around in our JY and i'm sure they cost more. The 2v 5.4 puts out 260hp and my 4.6 2v is 250 hp so not too much gain there either but you do have a few more cubes to work with. Most of the speed equipment for both of these engines is costly to the street guy but I'm not looking for a race truck, I just wanted something I could get my foot in once and a while.
Still looking for some pats info, ask around and let me know please.

The 5.4 has 350lb-ft at 2500 rpm though... it will rip a 4.6 apart lower in the powerband. You will have a hard time applying that to anything meaningful in a Ranger though.

A 2v 5.4 is my current weapon of choice for dragging my tractor around the countryside.

 

[shane96ranger]

I've been watching your project from time to time here. I'm impressed you chose to tackle this, and look forward to the end product.

I'm still not understanding why it would be so hard to just dump PATS. If you got the harness, it seems pretty easy. My 97 F150 (4.6 liter) does not have PATS, and is running the 4R70W (I don't recall which trans you are using). The harness looks fairly accessible to me. It seems like all the time you've spent looking for answers on PATS, the problem could have been solved by switching to non-PATS.

 

[bobbywalter]

i think if one of us sends him a n-p processor.....he will be frying rubber.


i am in detroit right now....and thinking about finding one.

 

[bobbywalter]

i dont think you understood what i was getting at on the phone. you can turn off pats with the moates.. i seen some stuff indicating that when turning off emission stuff. i looked at the deal i linked and it does not appear to say you can turn it off, but you can. same with the tweecer rt..

the system i was vested in burned up with dennys car...after he did some things he was advised not to...otherwise i would have had you order a chip and send me a processor. i dont work regularly with ford eec anymore as i moved up north....and working on others stuff was getting me in trouble at home anyway. so i never bought a new system...i tried to get mine replaced but that guy has bigger issues so i just let it go. we all bought different pieces of stuff...but i had the most out as i actually build harnesses and engines..i really could use it though and hope to have a similar system that i can finish learning...

it is difficult like you think to tune..when radically modifying the mechanical ability of the engine.....but the simple stuff that will make a swap easier is not so difficult....even a caveman like me can do it. like turning off emmissions and turning off pats...

call the companies and tell them what you want to do...they will help you.

 

[RJAAAAAA]

I've been watching your project from time to time here. I'm impressed you chose to tackle this, and look forward to the end product.

I'm still not understanding why it would be so hard to just dump PATS. If you got the harness, it seems pretty easy. My 97 F150 (4.6 liter) does not have PATS, and is running the 4R70W (I don't recall which trans you are using). The harness looks fairly accessible to me. It seems like all the time you've spent looking for answers on PATS, the problem could have been solved by switching to non-PATS.

Thanks for watching the build it's been fun, it really got stretched out in time but had some family medical problems that took priority.
The difference detween Pats and nonPats is in the pcm computer, the nonpats only has 60 wires to the pcm, the Pats units have 104 wires. This engine is completely controlled by the pcm the minute you turn the key, if you don't have the correct pats equipment key, pats module and pcm that match you get nothing. The starter won't crank, the fuel pump does not come on, nothing. My first thought was the try to bypass the pats so I checked my starting circuit and everything was good except the very last contact to close was in the PCM. The PCM was supposed to ground the circuit to complete it and the starter would run. I took a jumper from the pin on the PCM to ground and bingo the starter cranked. That really sounded good even if it didn't start. But my point is you can't just "bypass" the pats. There is more to it than that.
Using a nonpats now would require major rewiring and cross checking of compatibility. I'm not sure about the 97 model but this engine has individual coil packs on each plug. If push comes to shove I'm probably going to have to pull a complete system and swap it all out as a unit, ignition, module and pcm.
I'll keep you all posted as I get info but please keep an ear out for any pats info, that we all might have an easier time with this issue.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

even a caveman like me can do it.

Yeah, if bobbywalter can do it anybody can do it

I'm not sure about the 97 model but this engine has individual coil packs on each plug.

Trucks didn't have individual coilpacks until '99. PATS was optional way later than that though, our '04 5.4 F-250 service truck (XL of course) doesn't have PATS either.

If I stick an unprogrammed key into the ignition of my PATS F-150 it will just crank with no fire... like when you jumped it. Could you put the rest of the PATS stuff (ignition switch, harnesses and whatever else you are lacking) in and have a dealer program a key to match the system like if you lost your only key?

I know modules can be specific, but I do know sometimes things get pitched (when people work on their own vehicles) and it isn't the end of the world. I bet if you get everything and bend over a dealer could fix it for you.

Or take it to a speedshop and have them reprogram the PCM and maybe even throw in a custom tune...

 

[RJAAAAAA]

Yeah, if bobbywalter can do it anybody can do it





Trucks didn't have individual coilpacks until '99. PATS was optional way later than that though, our '04 5.4 F-250 service truck (XL of course) doesn't have PATS either.

If I stick an unprogrammed key into the ignition of my PATS F-150 it will just crank with no fire... like when you jumped it. Could you put the rest of the PATS stuff (ignition switch, harnesses and whatever else you are lacking) in and have a dealer program a key to match the system like if you lost your only key?

I know modules can be specific, but I do know sometimes things get pitched (when people work on their own vehicles) and it isn't the end of the world. I bet if you get everything and bend over a dealer could fix it for you.

Or take it to a speedshop and have them reprogram the PCM and maybe even throw in a custom tune...

Thanks for jumping in here, this is quite frustrating since I know I'm not the first swapper that has had this problem. Due to my lack of understanding or being able to find info on just how this system works it makes it all the more difficult to find an answer. My 2001 original system worked fine never had a problem and when I bought the engine I started it up while it was still in the car and it worked fine. However this was a police car and Ford somehow bypassed the pats for them which gave me hope that I wouldn't have a problem. The keys for the donor car are not chip keys. This just confuses the issue. Not sure how they bypassed the system, at the pats module (which I don't have) or the pcm, seems to me if it was bypassed in the pcm I should be able to just connect up my existing ignition switch, but thats not the case either.
The reprograming looks to be the answer and I've read that it has been done but know one is talking about it ??? I haven't had much time lately with the holiday and such. Hopefully next week I'll get back into it, I'm getting to the point now where I need my truck back on the road. Any one who does want to discuss the bypassing the pats but doesn't want to make it public can PM me or contact me at rjmartin@embarqmail.com and we'll keep it quiet.

 

[bobbywalter]

if you have a p71 processor. there is no pats installed in the processor. i went over to a speedshop that i deal with today and just made it before they closed, but the owner is not going to be around till sometime after the 5th. i was hoping he would hook me up with something for 50-80 bux that i could send you. i talked with one of his guys and explained to them what the situation is, and that i dont know much about anything past 01...and dont deal with crownvic 4.6 anyway unless they are windsor powered....the sick thing, a 351 cop car is why i dont have my tuning equipment

even if you have pats, bypassing pats is done by turning it off in the programming... i dont know how to clarify that any further...no secret whatsoever

there was a time it was a 20-40 dollar issue...i dropped off a box....when they had time they bumped it....called me...and i picked it up usually they would get the swap candidate in for a tune and refund that cost as well...

the world has changed much since 04-05 in the detroit area....dyno tuners are few these days... at one point my neighbor had a dyno in his friggen garage...over on ft street between gibratar and woodruff... talk about handy.







if you indeed have a police p71 pcm....your golden. your no start issue is something elsewhere...i already suggested the path i would run with that...power the pcm...force feed power to the pump for fuel and crank the bitch...and see if she wants to be rode...i do that in the junkyard...you can do it at home.

if you dont, send it in and have it flashed.



i see you also misunderstand the 60 pin 104 pin thing....eec5 is 104 pin...it is flash and chip compatible to some point in the mid 2000's pats is simply a function that blocks fueling injection/ignition type functions via the program installed...

i have attempted to identify a physical way to bypass it on the board, but as so far i understand its the program command...not a hardware activation that blocks. if i find a way...it will be on the web.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I have done some poking around. Aparently there is a "fleet mode" which pretty much disables pats.

Cop cars may have used something similar.

Our F-250 service truck was a fleet truck too so that point may be null (for an elevator company)

 

[shane96ranger]

I was reading some Mustang forums about this PATS thing. I saw this place recommended as a place that can get you there (bypassing):

http://www.thedetailzone.com/Ford 4.6 & 5.4 EFI.htm

 

[94xlt4.0]

as far as i know the pats system is software programmes in the pcm. it can be disabled via a factory scan tool or aftermarket tuner. there isnt anything hardware wise that is different than a non pats car. that said, get an sct tune or equivalent and have them turn off the pats. simplest way to go about it

 

[RJAAAAAA]

Pats? What pats?

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Today was a good day fellas.
Bobbywalters, I did it your way, jumped it out, gave her some fuel, and fired her up !!!! Almost anyway.
After reading and researching this thing as far as I could and with input from many of you guys here on the TRS I went out and gave this thing another shot.

I already knew if i jumped the starter circuit at the PCM I could get it to crank over but I never heard the fuel pump come on. I blamed the PCM and PATS but it turned out to be operator error(that would be me). Found I had wired the pump wrong !!! DAH ! I traced the transmitter wires for the PATS and disconnected the wires going to the PCM. Now when I turn the key I heard the fuel pump come on (that's a good sign). So I gave her a crank and she come to life, WOW. THANK YOU LORD !!!.
Turns out the PATS was never an issue as I had hoped when I found out that it didn't need a coded key but I let myself get carried away when it wouldn't fire up. Still running very rich but it runs, check out the video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSZdwecABQ&feature=youtu.be
Thanks guys for all your help and encouragement, I still have to fix the shifter linkage and a few minor details but it should go good now. Engine settled done after it came up to running temp. but still smells rich.
Hopefully I'll get her out for some testing this week.

 

[CHKNFKR]

Awesome build dude!

Is that thing as quiet in real life as it is in that video?