daily doubler build

[4.0B2]

At least you got the order! Hahahahaha

 

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

I'd just say eff it and throw a detroit in it Bray. Mines been in the back of my 91 for the last 4 years. Love it.

That rear end will be going into my daily driven 97 soon here when I start swapping the 1 tons into the 91. Which will be getting detroits in both the D60 and the 10.25.

 

[wahlstrom1]

Detroit:
-reliable (usually?), predictable
-but...I blew mine up in the D44 on it's first hub breakage, both shafts and spicer u joint survived... it was 2 weeks old... My rear worked great from day one, and it had 70k of daily driven abuse in an 8.8" with 35's and 37's

ARB's:
- Great when they work, crap when the don't
-Moisture in air can freeze them up in cold weather, need extremely clean oil
-relying on tiny air lines and pressurized air to keep your diffs locked (quivers at thought....)

In mud the selectable is kinda pointless, tire slip makes the steering gain negligible.

In rock with no hydro assist, the arb makes steering MUCH easier, but so does hydro assist....

Pick your poison, either are good....

 

[Maverick]

Do you have a c-clip eliminator? Spool FTW!!

Seriously though...

Cheap
Works no matter what
No clunking or banging
Predictable
Easier on everything but tires

After weighing out all my options, that's what I ended up with. Of course mine will see no where near the amount of street driving yours does. I would do an ARB in your case. Set up properly, with care taken in routing air lines and keeping your gear oil clean they can be very reliable. My dad had one in the front of his Toyota and during the few years he kept the truck he never had an issue with engagement even one time. They're proven durable as well.

 

[Kage]

My Ballistic order finally came in. I think I ordered it in like February. Damn. ...

At least you got it!

I'd just say eff it and throw a detroit in it Bray. Mines been in the back of my 91 for the last 4 years. Love it.

This

Detroit:
-reliable (usually?), predictable
-but...I blew mine up in the D44 on it's first hub breakage, both shafts and spicer u joint survived... it was 2 weeks old... My rear worked great from day one, and it had 70k of daily driven abuse in an 8.8" with 35's and 37's

ARB's:
- Great when they work, crap when the don't
-Moisture in air can freeze them up in cold weather, need extremely clean oil
-relying on tiny air lines and pressurized air to keep your diffs locked (quivers at thought....)
Pick your poison, either are good....

And this.

How often do you use your truck as a truck? If you're loading up the rear using it as a truck (hauling crap/rock/steel/whatever) then a selectable might make more sense so that you can keep the extra stress off things when you're loaded up.

If all you're ever hauling around is the usual trail junk, just slap a detroit in it and move on with life.

I'm also wondering if there's a higher failure rate with the dertoits in the front due to how things break when when they let go. When you pop a shaft in the rear, it just breaks and that's it. If you pop a U joint in the front, you have a bit of a hammer effect as the ears on the yokes hit each other. So I'm wondering if that hammer effect is what breaks them? Food for thought anyway.

As I said before, I know my front detroit has survived at least blowing two shafts before I owned it, so its not a gaurntee that they'll die if you break a shaft, nor is it a gaurntee that it'll live either

Fawk it, you need a welded rockwell

 

[Bray D]

Thanks for the input guys.

I'm still going to contact ARB, just for kicks. I'm curious what they have to say about their product.

I obviously want the selectable due to the amount of road driving I do. As of right now, I'm sure a Detroit would be more reliable. I get excited about 'techy' stuff, and selectable lockers are pretty neat. I'm trying to use logic to decide what to go with rather than my gut instinct to go with the more 'high tech' locker (selectable).

My front is locked, and I have no issue turning - even on rocks. That will probably change once I lock the rear as well. I've got a complete PSC hydro assist kit sitting in my room. Just gotta tap my box and get it installed, so steering shouldn't be an issue.

Moisture in the air, and keeping the oil clean may be an issue. I get into some nasty situations at times, whether I like it or not. It gets cold here in the winter as well, sometimes with actual temperatures below 0*F. Frozen air lines is a legitimate concern.

I'd love to go spool. If I had a FF rear, it would almost be a no brainer. I'm not cool with c-clip elims for the 8.8. If I did it, I would use 9" ends. I don't trust the eliminator kits. I don't think I want to put that much work into this rearend (9" ends), so I'll keep researching c-clip lockers.

Edit: Email to ARB has been sent.

 

[Bray D]

I'm far more impressed with ARB that I am with Eaton. See my email below, and their reply in red.

To whom it may concern,

I plan to install a locker in my 31 spline Ford 8.8 rearend and I am researching my options. My vehicle sees a lot of street driving, as well as harsh offroad conditions. This makes a selectable locker attractive. I’m finding certain things about the different types of selectable lockers that cause me to question their reliability, so I’ve been contacting their manufacturers to see if they can convince me that their design is robust enough to provide years of worry free operation.

I really like how your locker engages. It is undoubtedly one of the strongest lockers in the industry.

What I am concerned with, however, is the method of engaging the locker. From reading reviews from guys who have run your locker, it seems the biggest issue is air leaks. Without proper air pressure, the locker will disengage.

Lack of Air Pressure will cause the locker to default to an open mode. Very rarely is this an issue. Poorly routed airlines can be damaged by either heat or from being snagged. In practice this really isn't an issue unless the installer is careless. Typically we run the airlines in along the length of either the brake or fuel lines as both are typically well protected from heat and underbody impacts. Further to this our fittings are specifically designed to be reusable at both the locker end and the compressor allowing for fast field repairs if somehow the line gets pulled loose. Finally, push in splices are available that can be quickly installed to connect or splice a spare piece of air hose into the system if needed.


Another concern is the possibility of moisture getting in the air lines, and freezing under extremely cold conditions. Where I’m located, temperatures below 0*F is not out of the norm. I’m worried the lines will freeze, making my locker useless.

Air Lockers are used frequently in polar expeditions and all over Iceland. In extremely cold conditions an air dryer or airline alcohol can be used if needed, but that typically is not required until temps reach at least -30*F. Our seals are tested to -20*F and should not have any issue coping with 0*F. At those temps we would recommend synthetic gear oil, however, as conventional oils flow very poorly at extreme temps.

I have talked with Eaton about their E-Locker for my application. I’m a fan of their electro-magnetic locker engagement. No air to leak, no cables to stick or come out of adjustment. If I catch a wire on a rock and cut it, a quick splice will have me back on the trail with full traction. Where Eaton failed in my opinion, is their pin style engagement. The pins will eventually round, making it impossible for the locker to lock. They also wouldn’t provide me with any strength numbers, making me question the durability of their 8.8 locker.


One of the drawbacks with the pin design of the Eaton is that it must rotate to lock. This means from forward to reverse the diff disengages then re-engages. Under power the pins suffer. With the Air Locker the diff is fully locked and does not care what direction it turns. Further, the air pressure produces about 300PSI of pressure on the locking (clutch) gear to drive it into place. Electrics and cables have no where near this kind of power in their locking mechanisms. This is important as if the gears are a bit bound the Air Locker will lock, something that might not occur immediately with our competitors.

The 8.8 is rated to 9900 ft/lbs of torque at the gearset.

Like I said, I really like your how the locker mechanically engages. I’m just worried about the reliability of depending on air to make it happen.

Can you shine any light on what you guys have done to ensure the locker will continue to work under extreme conditions? What measures have been taken to ensure a leak proof system?

Thanks in advance for your time. I look forward to hearing from you!

Leaks are almost always the result of poor installation. Most owners (and we've now sold in excess of 250,000 lockers worldwide) never have issues with air leaks. We've been fine tuning the design for 30 years now and our seals, steels, design, and QC have all evolved over that time to produce the strongest most reliable locking diff on the market. Evidence of this can be seen in ARB use in competition (we're the only selectable top teams even consider for strength reasons) as well as overland expeditions including our dealer Arctic Trucks building rigs for Antarctic use.

Please let me know if you have further questions.


Edit: Did a quick calculation. With my current setup, I could be 100% bound up in 3rd gear, double low, and still not break the locker. I would never break it in single low - ever.

Without knowing Dutchman's heat treat specs, I don't know the breaking strength of my 31spl shafts. I'll see if I can dig up some more data.

All of this is really worthless if I don't have another locker to compare it to, but its all in good fun. I wish Eaton would've given me these values for their lockers.

 

[86 slo-vo]

im with cage, i DD'd with a regular detroit and it never bothered me at all. never really noticed it.

i did 18 hours on the highway with it in the green expo when i brought it home, i was convinced he lied and it was just an LSD so i popped the cover and sure enough there was a detroit in it.

i beat the shit out of it in the ranger from dumping the clutch repeatedly on concrete to the rock garden and as you saw i wasnt too easy on it

all in all for worry free and simple, to me the detroit wins.

 

[Kage]

I dig that they got back to you quickly, and answered your questions but..

... unless the installer is careless. ....

That keeps poping up and it irratates me. While I agree that there are quite a few of the ARB's running around trouble free, I watched ARB burn a couple of fellow Jeepers with the line above. Citing that it was obviously the installers fault that their air lockers would loose all air pressure when you put torque on them (Dana 30 application FWIW). I'll save you the drama, but I'm certain it was not due to the installation of the locker, or the housing the locker was in. But the actual locker itself. You may want to get a copy of their warantee statment and give it a good read.

On the other side of the coin, we wheeled with a fellow this weekend at Interlake with ARB's front and rear (D30/8.8 combo) that worked really well.... Until that piece of shit compressor that comes with the lockers crapped the bed. Then he was rocking Open/Open in the slick interlake hills. So if you go ARB, you might want to consider a different air source than what they provide you with.

I think you should buy one though and convince me how awesome it is so that I can talk myself back into putting on in the rear of my truck. As ARB/Eaton are the only two people out there making full lockers for the goofy 32 spline shafts I have in the 60.

 

[Bray D]

Gah, I'm still torn. With the way the Eaton selectable works, I don't think I'm considering it anymore. The engage/disengage/pin engagement/etc is enough for me to nix them as an option.

So I'm pretty much down to ARB or Detroit. Selectable has offroad benefits as well as the on road benefits. Tighter turning/unlock to hold lines/etc. There's a reason competition rigs run selectable lockers.

That being said, I don't have a comp rig, nor will I ever have cutting brakes.

There's ways to get around the ARB compressor. Then again, why should I have to modify a $1k+ system?

I asked for ARB's warranty info. I hope to hear from them tomorrow.

 

[Kage]

...There's ways to get around the ARB compressor. Then again, why should I have to modify a $1k+ system?

Yup. And I think you're worrying about turning radius too much here as well. In the front, a selectable is nice for the turning radius aspect, for the rear it doesn't really matter at all. Hell, I ran a spool in the rear of my XJ for years. The only time it sucked to turn was when it was when that front locker is locked up tight.

Just buy a damn detroit allready

And yikes, I priced what they want for my application, $1,200 bucks Fawk that!

 

[Bray D]

Yeah they're pricey for sure. I've been talkin with my man slo-vo and he's almost got me convinced that the Detroit won't piss me off too bad.

I'd almost be more apt to buy it if it didn't ratchet at all. I HATE popping/clunking/clicking. It makes me feel like my truck is a bigger POS than it is.

He said his was quiet, and most of the time never even knew it was back there.

I'm not too worried about turning. My front has an Aussie, and its locked up 99% of the time. When it lets go it sounds like a shotgun. I should've spooled that fawker from the get-go.

I see the advantages of a selectable locker, just not sure if I'd benefit from them all that much. I think the differentiation bones me more often than not, so being locked 100% of the time will be alright.

I'm going to read up some more on the Detroits.

 

[86 slo-vo]

It makes me feel like my truck is a bigger POS than it is.

didnt even know that was possible































yea yea...i dont have anything right now

 

[Bray D]

didnt even know that was possible

I knew that was coming. lol.


I watched some videos about how the detroit works. Its essentially a lunchbox locker with a new housing. It has big springs that allow the side 'gears' to push back and ratchet.

I'm not sure how its put together such that it will allow you to install the c-clips, but just an idea, replace the springs with solid shims. Voila, c-clip compatible spool.

 

[Bray D]

ARB warranty is 2 year, 24,000 miles. He sent me a copy of their manual as well which includes all of the technical jargon. Haven't had a chance to browse through it yet.

I've been searching for used Detroits, no luck.

Aaand, I really want some TR beadlocks.