Soul crushed and seeking advice on starting problems

[TacoBelleGirl]

Hey all!

This is my first post here and sadly it's not a particularly happy one.
I have a 1991 Ranger 4.0 with a 5 speed manual that I bought off of a friend and actually taught myself how to drive stick with.
Attacked is a picture of the rig.

Unfortunately I have had a lot of problems with the old girl in regards to starting.
When I bought the truck it would start just fine until it got hot and then would just sit there and crank over.
Being naive I tried spraying starting fluid into the intake when it did this, which did seem to get it to start however I never actually proved that it was fueling and not spark.

I drove it like that for a bit until the flywheel ring gear got destroyed as pictured below (and yes it had a massive PS fluid leak plus a few others that are still there).

When the flywheel gave out I made the choice to buy some more tools, a new flywheel, and ultimately replaced it while the truck was parked in my apartment's parking complex.
This worked great for almost exactly one month before damage appeared in the new flywheel and I am now back in the same boat as before. The truck was working great and I wasn't having issues starting after all the work for 2 or 3 weeks but then it got worse and it started struggling to start even when cold (and hot as before).

Being desperate without another rig at the time I did continue to spray starting fluid into it as an attempt which I thought was helping it start, but my friend actually looked at it with me and we determined that it was having inconstant spark when attempting to start. We checked the ohms on the coil and they seem to be good, plus spark was good once it started and it ran smoothly with plenty of power.
At this point the truck is parked once again with a damaged ringear unable to crank over.

So I have multiple things on mind with this post.
1. What may have caused that damage twice in such a short amount of time? Is that possibly from misuse of starting fluid?
2. I really would like some advice and opinions on how to proceed.

In terms of the spark problem the truck has new plugs and wires though I haven't replaced the coil since the ohms were good and it ran great once started.
Based on my research I thought the PIP or ICM so I did the money wasting option of replacing both with no luck.
Now at this point I am thinking it might be an interference problem with the PIP signal as I have realized that with the starter spinning but not engaged with the flywheel (and thus no rotation) the tach actually still moves and when I just looked at it jumped to 1k RPMs while the engine literally wasn't even turning over.

I feel pretty defeated and bummed out about how everything has gone here so I'm really hoping for some advice on how I should proceed.

Before anyone asks yes I have changed the starter and the fender-mounted solenoid (both before and after the flywheel problems the first time). The spacer between the transmission and the ring gear is in place and does appear to be in one piece. Not sure if it's super relevant here but it is the Mazda M5R1 transmission.

Thank you for your time reading my post here and I really appreciate any direction that is given. I'd hate to give up on the truck and would love to get it working reliably as it's brought a lot of smiles to my face.

 

[2011Supercab]

With the amount of dirt and grime around the hole, that tells me the starter wasn't bolted down tight.

My guess is the bolts holding the starter on are to long and bottoming out.

 

[SenorNoob]

^That makes sense to me.

As for interference, have you checked the length of the wiring? What about bad ground to the engine block? That could cause ALL kinds of problems.

 

[rumblecloud]

With the amount of dirt and grime around the hole, that tells me the starter wasn't bolted down tight.

My guess is the bolts holding the starter on are to long and bottoming out.

Great observation
That whole area obviously needs to be crud free before re-installing. If it's just grease and oil easy peazy....if it's crusty means it has been that way for awhile and will require a bit more effort.

 

[SenorNoob]

When cleaning it don't forget about the surface of the starter too!

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

I’m going to agree that the starter isn’t sitting tight or shifting. Somewhat common problem on older rigs. Something to be mindful of.

Electrical issues are also common. I’ve been a victim of this and I do electrical work. Had the ground cable rot apart inside the insulation without visible signs of a problem. I was fighting no-start/hard start and a host of crazy electrical issues and just happened to get curious as to why the main ground off the battery sounded crunchy when flexed. Skinned some insulation and junk. Ever since then I don’t play, either whenever I have things torn apart anyway for something or I start having electrical issues, I make up new cables out of 4 gauge welding cable. Ground and hot to starter, ground to frame, and I replace the dinky ground to the core support with 4 gauge. Use No-Alox (hardware store electrical section) or dielectric grease on things.

For the no-start, I’d suspect a fueling problem. Check the vacuum line of the fuel pressure regulator for fuel, it shouldn’t have any. If it does, the regulator is bad for sure. Also if you can, check the fuel pressure at the rail. No hot start can often be low fuel pressure vaporizing fuel in the rail which causes no start. These older trucks you can cycle the key a couple times and push fresh fuel into the rail to try to eliminate that. If the pump is weak or the filter is plugged this won’t really help though.

Another huge problem with these older trucks is the capacitors in the computer pop and can cause all sorts of issues. It’s an easy thing to check, pull the battery cables and pull the computer (passenger side kick panel). Remove the cover on the computer and look. Blown capacitors sometimes are physically broken but will always stain the board under them. The corrosive juice in them can also burn out other components on the board.

 

[TacoBelleGirl]

Thank you for all the replys! I'm gonna go ahead and reply to everything that I can, but I won't be wrenching on the rig today because it's raining and cruddy weather.

My guess is the bolts holding the starter on are to long and bottoming out.

I actually hadn't considered that the bolts themselves could be at fault. The starter *feels* solid by hand. Doesn't budge at all when I grab it, but I know the starter will put way more torque on it than I am. The top bolt specifically always struck me as odd, but I assumed it was okay since that's what it already had in place.. Attached is a pic from underneath. Maybe I should consider harvesting some bolts out of a rig in a junk yard, lol.

As for interference, have you checked the length of the wiring? What about bad ground to the engine block? That could cause ALL kinds of problems.

The wiring for the PIP signal or something else? The PIP wiring is factory to my eyes though the battery and starter cables are 100% messed with from factory but there doesn't seem to be excessive length.

I did work on the grounds on this vehicle. Removed, cleaned, and reattached the passenger side grounds that go from the battery, to the fender, and to the block. The ground on the block wasn't attached when I bought the truck. I wasn't sure where it was supposed to go so I mounted it here as I was able to confirm continuity between here and other parts of the engine. Is this correct?

On the drivers side the ground appears to be attached correctly but I haven't gotten a good view of where it attaches to the back of the engine.

That whole area obviously needs to be crud free before re-installing. If it's just grease and oil easy peazy....if it's crusty means it has been that way for awhile and will require a bit more effort.

When cleaning it don't forget about the surface of the starter too!

I did clean the plate and installed a new starter when putting it all back together the first time. Picture was from the first failure.. I haven't taken it apart again due to weather (and realistically I am not doing this in the winter in the apartment parking lot).

Electrical issues are also common. I’ve been a victim of this and I do electrical work. Had the ground cable rot apart inside the insulation without visible signs of a problem. I was fighting no-start/hard start and a host of crazy electrical issues and just happened to get curious as to why the main ground off the battery sounded crunchy when flexed. Skinned some insulation and junk. Ever since then I don’t play, either whenever I have things torn apart anyway for something or I start having electrical issues, I make up new cables out of 4 gauge welding cable. Ground and hot to starter, ground to frame, and I replace the dinky ground to the core support with 4 gauge. Use No-Alox (hardware store electrical section) or dielectric grease on things.

Can a ground problem cause starting issues while still having a good cranking speed? When I put it all back together I verified all seemed to be working well by pulling the fuel pump fuse and cranking it over. It cranked over strong enough to build oil pressure and that was on a slightly undersized battery. Is the "dinky ground to the core support on the drivers side"? I haven't touched that one.

Either way with how much downtime I expect to have with the truck I may as well replace it all lol.

For the no-start, I’d suspect a fueling problem. Check the vacuum line of the fuel pressure regulator for fuel, it shouldn’t have any. If it does, the regulator is bad for sure. Also if you can, check the fuel pressure at the rail. No hot start can often be low fuel pressure vaporizing fuel in the rail which causes no start. These older trucks you can cycle the key a couple times and push fresh fuel into the rail to try to eliminate that. If the pump is weak or the filter is plugged this won’t really help though.

Another huge problem with these older trucks is the capacitors in the computer pop and can cause all sorts of issues. It’s an easy thing to check, pull the battery cables and pull the computer (passenger side kick panel). Remove the cover on the computer and look. Blown capacitors sometimes are physically broken but will always stain the board under them. The corrosive juice in them can also burn out other components on the board.

So I actually did check that. No fuel in the FPR vacuum line. l replaced the fuel pump in the truck and the old was SUPER crusty.
The pump does run for a few seconds with key on. When it would start though the truck it had plenty of torque and power.. I once accidentally spun the rear tires in 2nd gear and that was before replacing the pump and it doesn't choke out at all when revving out. Fuel filter also replaced. I have opened the PCM and the capacitors didn't seem to have leaked out, but they did have a bit of a bulge on the top so I had replaced them. Still not completely sure if the PCM is working right though as it would like to idle high, but otherwise would run go with no check engine light. Idle would return to normal if I disconnected the idle control valve. Same behavior with an aftermarket and original idle valve.

When my friend had looked at with me we hooked a spark light to it and found that it would crank for a while with no spark and then as soon as spark started working it would fire off which is why I wasn't thinking a fuel problem and was considering it was EMI on the PIP signal confusing the EDIS module.

Again thank you so much everyone for all the input!

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Thank you for all the replys! I'm gonna go ahead and reply to everything that I can, but I won't be wrenching on the rig today because it's raining and cruddy weather.


I actually hadn't considered that the bolts themselves could be at fault. The starter *feels* solid by hand. Doesn't budge at all when I grab it, but I know the starter will put way more torque on it than I am. The top bolt specifically always struck me as odd, but I assumed it was okay since that's what it already had in place.. Attached is a pic from underneath. Maybe I should consider harvesting some bolts out of a rig in a junk yard, lol.

View attachment 137641


The wiring for the PIP signal or something else? The PIP wiring is factory to my eyes though the battery and starter cables are 100% messed with from factory but there doesn't seem to be excessive length.

I did work on the grounds on this vehicle. Removed, cleaned, and reattached the passenger side grounds that go from the battery, to the fender, and to the block. The ground on the block wasn't attached when I bought the truck. I wasn't sure where it was supposed to go so I mounted it here as I was able to confirm continuity between here and other parts of the engine. Is this correct?

View attachment 137642

On the drivers side the ground appears to be attached correctly but I haven't gotten a good view of where it attaches to the back of the engine.



I did clean the plate and installed a new starter when putting it all back together the first time. Picture was from the first failure.. I haven't taken it apart again due to weather (and realistically I am not doing this in the winter in the apartment parking lot).



Can a ground problem cause starting issues while still having a good cranking speed? When I put it all back together I verified all seemed to be working well by pulling the fuel pump fuse and cranking it over. It cranked over strong enough to build oil pressure and that was on a slightly undersized battery. Is the "dinky ground to the core support on the drivers side"? I haven't touched that one.

Either way with how much downtime I expect to have with the truck I may as well replace it all lol.



So I actually did check that. No fuel in the FPR vacuum line. l replaced the fuel pump in the truck and the old was SUPER crusty.
The pump does run for a few seconds with key on. When it would start though the truck it had plenty of torque and power.. I once accidentally spun the rear tires in 2nd gear and that was before replacing the pump and it doesn't choke out at all when revving out. Fuel filter also replaced. I have opened the PCM and the capacitors didn't seem to have leaked out, but they did have a bit of a bulge on the top so I had replaced them. Still not completely sure if the PCM is working right though as it would like to idle high, but otherwise would run go with no check engine light. Idle would return to normal if I disconnected the idle control valve. Same behavior with an aftermarket and original idle valve.
View attachment 137643

When my friend had looked at with me we hooked a spark light to it and found that it would crank for a while with no spark and then as soon as spark started working it would fire off which is why I wasn't thinking a fuel problem and was considering it was EMI on the PIP signal confusing the EDIS module.

Again thank you so much everyone for all the input!

Alright…

Little slow with my response because I’m working on cooking dinner…

Starter and bolts look better than I expected from that first pic. Unless the bolts are working loose it seems odd that it’s eating flywheels. Does it sound like it engages/disengages cleanly with no grinding?

Grounds can cause all sorts of issues even with cranking speed being ok. The normal place for the block ground is on the side of the block above the motor mount on these. Newer trucks take the block ground to the starter but anywhere block/starter/heads works. Normal configuration was a wire that went from the negative terminal to the frame and then over to the block. I usually run separate 4 gauge wires. That one you have on there all taped up concerns me about how well it’s doing its job.

The “dinky” ground wire is by the battery, just a short bit of 10 or 8 gauge running from the negative terminal over to the core support.

That is a super crusty pump! Yikes!

Wonder if the TPS (throttle position sensor) is acting up. More a curiosity thing.

Unplugging the IAC and it idles right tells me there’s a vacuum leak most likely.

That delayed spark sounds fishy…

@holyford86 , you have any suggestions?

 

[TacoBelleGirl]

Alright…

Little slow with my response because I’m working on cooking dinner…

Starter and bolts look better than I expected from that first pic. Unless the bolts are working loose it seems odd that it’s eating flywheels. Does it sound like it engages/disengages cleanly with no grinding?

Grounds can cause all sorts of issues even with cranking speed being ok. The normal place for the block ground is on the side of the block above the motor mount on these. Newer trucks take the block ground to the starter but anywhere block/starter/heads works. Normal configuration was a wire that went from the negative terminal to the frame and then over to the block. I usually run separate 4 gauge wires. That one you have on there all taped up concerns me about how well it’s doing its job.

The “dinky” ground wire is by the battery, just a short bit of 10 or 8 gauge running from the negative terminal over to the core support.

That is a super crusty pump! Yikes!

Wonder if the TPS (throttle position sensor) is acting up. More a curiosity thing.

Unplugging the IAC and it idles right tells me there’s a vacuum leak most likely.

That delayed spark sounds fishy…

@holyford86 , you have any suggestions?

No worries on slow replies.. I don't think the truck is going anywhere!

Do those look like factory starter bolts? The bottom one seems normal to me but the top one always stood out as odd since it's got all the extra threads on it after the bolt. I did clean them before reinstalling too.
I always thought it sounded like it engaged and disengaged just fine and cranked over normally until the damage starts to appear and then you can hear it as it's turning over. The eating of flywheels is really weird to me. Originally I blamed a starter issue but since I changed everything out that seems unlikely. My other thought was a problem with the transmission bell housing since that's where the starter is bolted to?

I taped up the ground wire.. felt like I should put something around it since it was near the exhaust.
Still happy to go through and change out the grounds in the downtime, feels like I may as well.

Throttle is responsive so unknown on TPS? I keep meaning to backprobe it and check voltages.
I thought maybe there could be a vacuum leak so I did try spraying brake cleaner around trying find a spot where it would change the idle and came up empty handed. Not the most foolproof test but it's what I tried.

My only theory I have for the spark problem is interference on that crank sensor.
The tach is moving even when the starter isn't engaging the engine and turning it over which seems awfully fishy to me.
Here's a clip of just that last night. The starter is spinning and not engaging the flywheel. The engine is not turning over at all. (also no sound because my phone is damaged)

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

I'm wondering if the seperator plate between engine and trans has an oblong hole where the starter is supposed to engage? If it isn't correctly positioning the starter that could cause ring gear wear.
As far as spark I dont know.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

So, my 92 Ranger doesn’t use a starter bolt like that upper one, but both of my 00 Rangers do, because that’s where they bolt the starter ground to instead of doing a ground to the block.

Starter, starter bolts, separator plate, and bellhousing are all the common suspects for chewing up a flywheel. But usually it makes noise before it chews up a flywheel and nothing is glaring obvious as a problem and it sounds like you’ve been make good effort so it’s either something dumb that we are all overlooking or I dunno.

The way I look at grounds, if I’m even suspicious of a problem, it’s better to replace it. Sure, it might not always be necessary, but after you’ve encountered a few ground problems it seems like cheap insurance to me. I buy bulk welding cable and crimp my own ends, then cover things in glue-lined heat shrink. Clean connection points good and use a healthy dose of No-Alox or Dielectric to ensure corrosion stays at bay. Living here in the rusty steel buckle of the rust belt, and the land of salt and corrosive de-icing, rust and corrosion are a nightmare.

I’ve heard of all sorts of things for finding vacuum leaks and I’ve tried most of them. I’ve never been able to get any to work and finally broke down an bought a smoke machine. Wish I would have got one of the ones with the built in pump, but those things will show a leak for sure.

I’m gonna have to look at my Choptop when I crank it and see if it moves the tach. I’m running essentially a 91 Ranger 4.0 system in that these days and everything is working pretty decent now that I’ve resolved a pile of issues that didn’t keep it from running but kept it from running well.