Oil Filters

[Tedybear]

As stated, the engine was 100% fine. I've logged a very long time with Probe forums (that's what the 2.2 turbo was in) the nickles in a tin can sound is/was a problem sense day one with HLA's. (consider them to be mini-lifters at the end of the rocker arms on an overhead cam engine)

The issue has plagued this series of engine for a long time. The recommended solution is always first to change the oil and filter with 5w30 high quality, and using a quality filter (basically anything that does not have "Fram" written on it LOL)

We miss that '92 probe GT. For a small car it was wicked quick off the line, and would blow most rice-rockets off the road without even a second thought.

(the frame gave out due to road salt rusting... Drive train was still 110% however)

S-

 

[shadetree]

http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/reference.html#kn

he covers just about every filter imaginable.

This so called "study" has been around for years. The man is not an engineer. He is not studying how the filter works under operating conditions. He is simply cutting them open and thinks he can make some kind of determination by just looking at them.

If I am going to make a judgement, I want the device to be examined under normal, and extreme operating conditions by someone who knows what they are doing.

I have used Fram filters for years on my own vehicles, as well as customers. Never have I seen one filter related problem. The blaming of filters usually has some other cause. Since I have seen no laboratory doing such testing, I will go with my experience.

When I read these posts, very few have actually had problems. It is always "I knew a guy," or "a friends car," or "I had an uncle." Seldom a first hand experience.

I'm not saying Fram is perfect. All mfgrs have their problems. Last I checked, Fram outsold all other filters combined by almost 2 to 1. With this much production, there will be more problems just due to volume. If the filter is as bad as some claim, and has the defects claimed, I would think the company would have trouble selling the product. But, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Some of the Fram bashing started years ago with a problem with motorcycle filters that had a bad run, and damaged a few bikes. Fram corrected the problem, and compensated those that experienced damage. But, the fire had already been lit.

If I stopped using a product everytime I had a problem with it, there would be very few products I could use. I had a bad experience with a couple of Motorcraft spark plugs. I guess that makes them all bad, and I shouldn't use them anymore. Common sense has to come into play somewhere.

As far as price, Chinamart prices for Fram and Motorcraft are about the same with Motorcraft a few cents higher. Filter cost means nothing. To get the best filtration, the higher grades of filters should be used anyway, if that is your concern. A three dollar filter is a three dollar filter.

I think one problem some have with filters is they do not know how to properly change the filter. I saw one comment that due to the griping surface of the Frams, he coudn't get a wrench on it to take it off. You should'nt have to use a wrench if you put the filter on yourself. I have removed some filters to tight, I had to punch a hole thru the damn thing, and use a long bar to get it loose.

The filter should be hand tight. One mfgr recommends tightening the filter 3/4 turn after seal contact. I use this as a guide on changing most filters, no matter the brand. To get that 3/4 turn, you have to have pretty strong hands as it does get tight. Matter of fact, most people overtighten everything, bolts, screws, etc.

Clean the filter surface on the engine.

Lubricate the filter seal with oil or grease. If you put it on dry, it will not slide in place easily as it should, and could pull out of the filter completely. I think this is where some have problems with the filter leaking or blowing out the seals. The seal gets kinked or damaged when installing.

Properly tighten the filter to the engine.shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

This so called "study" has been around for years. The man is not an engineer. He is not studying how the filter works under operating conditions. He is simply cutting them open and thinks he can make some kind of determination by just looking at them.

If I am going to make a judgement, I want the device to be examined under normal, and extreme operating conditions by someone who knows what they are doing.

I have used Fram filters for years on my own vehicles, as well as customers. Never have I seen one filter related problem. The blaming of filters usually has some other cause. Since I have seen no laboratory doing such testing, I will go with my experience.

When I read these posts, very few have actually had problems. It is always "I knew a guy," or "a friends car," or "I had an uncle." Seldom a first hand experience.

I'm not saying Fram is perfect. All mfgrs have their problems. Last I checked, Fram outsold all other filters combined by almost 2 to 1. With this much production, there will be more problems just due to volume. If the filter is as bad as some claim, and has the defects claimed, I would think the company would have trouble selling the product. But, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Some of the Fram bashing started years ago with a problem with motorcycle filters that had a bad run, and damaged a few bikes. Fram corrected the problem, and compensated those that experienced damage. But, the fire had already been lit.

If I stopped using a product everytime I had a problem with it, there would be very few products I could use. I had a bad experience with a couple of Motorcraft spark plugs. I guess that makes them all bad, and I shouldn't use them anymore. Common sense has to come into play somewhere.

As far as price, Chinamart prices for Fram and Motorcraft are about the same with Motorcraft a few cents higher. Filter cost means nothing. To get the best filtration, the higher grades of filters should be used anyway, if that is your concern. A three dollar filter is a three dollar filter.shady

My philosophy is to use the OEM filter on my vehicles: Motorcraft on my Fords, Mann on my Mercedes, and Volvo on my Volvo. Years ago, I had to use a Fram in a pinch on my Volvo, and it only had 1/2 of the normal oil pressure. Pulled the Fram off, replacing it with a Volvo, and the pressure returned to normal. I experienced this 1st hand, and have NEVER used a Fram filter since!!!

 

[shadetree]

My philosophy is to use the OEM filter on my vehicles: Motorcraft on my Fords, Mann on my Mercedes, and Volvo on my Volvo. Years ago, I had to use a Fram in a pinch on my Volvo, and it only had 1/2 of the normal oil pressure. Pulled the Fram off, replacing it with a Volvo, and the pressure returned to normal. I experienced this 1st hand, and have NEVER used a Fram filter since!!!

Here again you did not check to see if the filter was the actual problem. You assumed it was, and made your decision from that. Some earlier Volvos had a filtration system that made the filter an integral part of the oil bypass system, and took a special filter. I don't remember the details exactly, but the wrong filter in these applications could cause pressure problems. More guesswork, and assuming, but a possibility.shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

Here again you did not check to see if the filter was the actual problem. You assumed it was, and made your decision from that. Some earlier Volvos had a filtration system that made the filter an integral part of the oil bypass system, and took a special filter. I don't remember the details exactly, but the wrong filter in these applications could cause pressure problems. More guesswork, and assuming, but a possibility.shady

Wrong Shady....standard filter....1972 Volvo 1800E with a B20F engine......
I have used Purolator once since the Fram, and no problem......

I'm simply amazed that you would continue to use Fram with all the bad news about them!!!

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I think one problem some have with filters is they do not know how to properly change the filter. I saw one comment that due to the griping surface of the Frams, he coudn't get a wrench on it to take it off. You should'nt have to use a wrench if you put the filter on yourself. I have removed some filters to tight, I had to punch a hole thru the damn thing, and use a long bar to get it loose.

The filter should be hand tight. One mfgr recommends tightening the filter 3/4 turn after seal contact. I use this as a guide on changing most filters, no matter the brand. To get that 3/4 turn, you have to have pretty strong hands as it does get tight. Matter of fact, most people overtighten everything, bolts, screws, etc.

Clean the filter surface on the engine.

Lubricate the filter seal with oil or grease. If you put it on dry, it will not slide in place easily as it should, and could pull out of the filter completely. I think this is where some have problems with the filter leaking or blowing out the seals. The seal gets kinked or damaged when installing.

Properly tighten the filter to the engine.shady

Of course it would depend from truck to truck, but where the filter is at in my F-150 and how you have to get to it, you can just get it on hand tight like you are supposed to but with the way you have to twist your arm it is hard to get the leverage to get it off. I just use a wrench to get it spinning freely and then I can get it from there. I think it was intended to be changed on a rack rather than a garage floor, you have to come up from underneath and then go around the front differential to get at it.

I used to have frams on my Ranger, I quit because the grippy stuff got all weird and crumbly when my truck leaked oil on it. It was hard to get them off when the grippy stuff was coming off too. That is the only problem I have had with a filter period.

I use Motorcraft filters and haven't had a problem.

 

[Psychopete]

Here again you did not check to see if the filter was the actual problem.

I am not the one to argue, but if the guy replaced something and had a new problem, then replaced it with something different and it went away, I would say that he pin pointed it.

I have had similar problems with not 1, but 2 on my 2.9L. The second was for verification and both did the same exact thing.

I am not going to set here and dog on them, but in my opinion, it is best to stay clear of them when there is not much price difference from the OEM filter.

Pete

Edit:
FWIW, I have used a Fram on a Chevy SBC that worked fine.

 

[Bob Ayers]

FWIW, I have used a Fram on a Chevy SBC that worked fine.

Chevy and Fram.....meant for each other!!!

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

shady, i think weve had this arguement before. i cant believe your still so vehemently defending fram filters when they are obviously the cause of problems for many people.

heres my experience with frams:
ive got over 4 years experience as a lube tech. 2 shops i worked at used wix/napa filters, one used motorcraft....being that most people make a habbit of returning to the same place to have their vehicle serviced, most of the cars i worked on had one of my filters on it. of the occasional new customer that came in with a foreign filter on, only a select few had frams. but even with that TINY sample of fram filters that i saw (compared to the rather huge example of both wix and motorcraft that i delt with on a daily basis), i still saw more defective fram filters than anything else. if your volume-to-defective-products ratio theory was correct, i should have experienced way more defective wix or motorcraft filters, correct?

here is fords eperience with fram filters:
they have several TSB's out for valvetrane noise caused by oil starvation. the first step in the TSB is varify the vehicle has an OEM filter on it, and replace it if it doesnt. but maybe its just a conspiracy to seperate customers from their money....under warranty

if the page eb89 posted is good for anything (you say its not), than we know that compared to a fram, the wix filters has almost twice as many pleats, nearly twice as much filter surface area (which usually relates to less pressure drop), a more stout design (with a steel end cap and glued media seam), and a drainback valve that can actually seal.

 

[Bob Ayers]

This so called "study" has been around for years. The man is not an engineer. He is not studying how the filter works under operating conditions. He is simply cutting them open and thinks he can make some kind of determination by just looking at them.

If I am going to make a judgement, I want the device to be examined under normal, and extreme operating conditions by someone who knows what they are doing.

I have used Fram filters for years on my own vehicles, as well as customers. Never have I seen one filter related problem. The blaming of filters usually has some other cause. Since I have seen no laboratory doing such testing, I will go with my experience.

When I read these posts, very few have actually had problems. It is always "I knew a guy," or "a friends car," or "I had an uncle." Seldom a first hand experience.

I'm not saying Fram is perfect. All mfgrs have their problems. Last I checked, Fram outsold all other filters combined by almost 2 to 1. With this much production, there will be more problems just due to volume. If the filter is as bad as some claim, and has the defects claimed, I would think the company would have trouble selling the product. But, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Some of the Fram bashing started years ago with a problem with motorcycle filters that had a bad run, and damaged a few bikes. Fram corrected the problem, and compensated those that experienced damage. But, the fire had already been lit.

If I stopped using a product everytime I had a problem with it, there would be very few products I could use. I had a bad experience with a couple of Motorcraft spark plugs. I guess that makes them all bad, and I shouldn't use them anymore. Common sense has to come into play somewhere.

As far as price, Chinamart prices for Fram and Motorcraft are about the same with Motorcraft a few cents higher. Filter cost means nothing. To get the best filtration, the higher grades of filters should be used anyway, if that is your concern. A three dollar filter is a three dollar filter.

I think one problem some have with filters is they do not know how to properly change the filter. I saw one comment that due to the griping surface of the Frams, he coudn't get a wrench on it to take it off. You should'nt have to use a wrench if you put the filter on yourself. I have removed some filters to tight, I had to punch a hole thru the damn thing, and use a long bar to get it loose.

The filter should be hand tight. One mfgr recommends tightening the filter 3/4 turn after seal contact. I use this as a guide on changing most filters, no matter the brand. To get that 3/4 turn, you have to have pretty strong hands as it does get tight. Matter of fact, most people overtighten everything, bolts, screws, etc.

Clean the filter surface on the engine.

Lubricate the filter seal with oil or grease. If you put it on dry, it will not slide in place easily as it should, and could pull out of the filter completely. I think this is where some have problems with the filter leaking or blowing out the seals. The seal gets kinked or damaged when installing.

Properly tighten the filter to the engine.shady

Shady, you aren't an engineer either, but anybody with just common sense can tell by the construction analysis that the Fram is inferior!!

 

[shadetree]

Shady, you aren't an engineer either, but anybody with just common sense can tell by the construction analysis that the Fram is inferior!!

In what way? Where is your data proving your "common sense."
And please, don't give someone elses opinion as provable data. You say it is inferior, in construction? Or performance? A product can be built not as strong as others, but as long as it does it's job without causing problems, so what?

Say what you will, I go from experience. I have been doing this stuff for years, and have yet to have any of the problems, real or imagined, posted in this thread. Nothing posted is proof positive that Fram filters are bad. It's all opinion. When I see the products are no longer used on expensive racing engines, I might become concerned. One or two problems experienced here or there is to be expected with any product, none are perfect.

Ford says use their filters, Chevy says use their filters, and so on. Its a filter, it filters oil, it doesn't know what engine it is on. Well Ford engineers design them specifically for Ford, and Chevy designs them specifically for Chevy. BS, they are filters, and will work on any engine. People get anal over filters like they do oil. It's not rocket science, and not that big of a deal.

More is better. More filter paper makes it better. Then why are filters getting smaller? Well the valve is plastic. So? Entire cars are made of plastic. Well it uses cardboard. So? Has there been catastrophic failure because someone thinks there is cardboard holding the filter together?

I was talking to a guy the other day, and the conversation came around to toilet paper filters. He swore by them. One of the best filtration systems ever made. He can't understand why people don't use them more because they are cheap and plentiful. Any common sense here? He went for the hype, and didn't think about what he was saying, else he would have known why they are not used in abundance.

You may be influenced by all this, but not me, because I haven't seen it.Engineer or no, you can't look at a filter and tell how it will perform in actual operatioin. You can speculate, but take your speculation and a couple bucks, and you might get a cup of coffee. I am also not going to hop on the "bash Fram" bandwagon because it is the popular thing to do.

If you are worried about it, and want to know the condition of your oil, have an occasional oil analysis done. Only sure way to know.shady

 

[fastpakr]

Intentional ignorance must be bliss, eh?

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

my thoughts exactly. shady your living in a fantasy world. youve been given real life examples of frams inferiority over and over again but still claim none exist. i have seen dozens of failed fram filters first hand. this is not something im making up or "heard from a friend of a friend". it is not a logistical anomaly because odds should be in favor of the fram.

a TSB is a tool used by ford technicians to diagnos problems that are often UNDER WARRANTY. ford wants you to use their filter on THEIR DIME. its not just the manufacturer trying to make an extra buck.

youve made a lot of valid points on TRS shady, youve even opened my eyes a few times, but i think in this instance you should really open your mind to consider what other people are telling you first hand.

 

[shadetree]

my thoughts exactly. shady your living in a fantasy world. youve been given real life examples of frams inferiority over and over again but still claim none exist. i have seen dozens of failed fram filters first hand. this is not something im making up or "heard from a friend of a friend". it is not a logistical anomaly because odds should be in favor of the fram.

a TSB is a tool used by ford technicians to diagnos problems that are often UNDER WARRANTY. ford wants you to use their filter on THEIR DIME. its not just the manufacturer trying to make an extra buck.

youve made a lot of valid points on TRS shady, youve even opened my eyes a few times, but i think in this instance you should really open your mind to consider what other people are telling you first hand.

You havent' shown me anything, sludge. No data, none, about Fram failures on a scale worth talking about. I have seen assumptions, innuendo, conjecture, but nothing solid to condemn a companies entire line of product. At 22 years old, and seeing what you claim to have seen, why haven't I, in all my 69 years seen one failure I could attribute to the filter being the problem? Just lucky, I guess.

I am totally aware of service bulletins. Ford is not going to issue a sb suggesting the use of any other product other than their own. So, that issue is moot. Proves nothing.

Show me some VALID data, on a scale that would be worthwhile, showing the failure of Fram oil filters. shady

Intentional ignorance must be bliss, eh?

You must be speaking from experience.shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

In what way? Where is your data proving your "common sense."
And please, don't give someone elses opinion as provable data. You say it is inferior, in construction? Or performance? A product can be built not as strong as others, but as long as it does it's job without causing problems, so what?

Say what you will, I go from experience. I have been doing this stuff for years, and have yet to have any of the problems, real or imagined, posted in this thread. Nothing posted is proof positive that Fram filters are bad. It's all opinion. When I see the products are no longer used on expensive racing engines, I might become concerned. One or two problems experienced here or there is to be expected with any product, none are perfect.

Ford says use their filters, Chevy says use their filters, and so on. Its a filter, it filters oil, it doesn't know what engine it is on. Well Ford engineers design them specifically for Ford, and Chevy designs them specifically for Chevy. BS, they are filters, and will work on any engine. People get anal over filters like they do oil. It's not rocket science, and not that big of a deal.

More is better. More filter paper makes it better. Then why are filters getting smaller? Well the valve is plastic. So? Entire cars are made of plastic. Well it uses cardboard. So? Has there been catastrophic failure because someone thinks there is cardboard holding the filter together?

I was talking to a guy the other day, and the conversation came around to toilet paper filters. He swore by them. One of the best filtration systems ever made. He can't understand why people don't use them more because they are cheap and plentiful. Any common sense here? He went for the hype, and didn't think about what he was saying, else he would have known why they are not used in abundance.

You may be influenced by all this, but not me, because I haven't seen it.Engineer or no, you can't look at a filter and tell how it will perform in actual operatioin. You can speculate, but take your speculation and a couple bucks, and you might get a cup of coffee. I am also not going to hop on the "bash Fram" bandwagon because it is the popular thing to do.

If you are worried about it, and want to know the condition of your oil, have an occasional oil analysis done. Only sure way to know.shady