My New House & Workshop

[bobbywalter]

can you split your lot and have them run a box to your garage so you have two meters?

like for a home business....? maybe some write offs ect...

 

[Jim Oaks]

Codes. You guys crack me up.

My neighbor across the street had Romex stapled to the wood siding on his house that ran to window A/C units.

 

[bobbywalter]

well, sometimes they will run another box for 600 bux or so and will eat it over time and then its there ....

worth a shot. way easier.

 

[Curious Hound]

Yeah. We've had that discussion about codes at your place in the past. Probably in the early pages of this very thread. Regardless of your code enforcement or lack thereof, I will try to ensure thst all my recommendations follow generally accepted codes in most of the US. I will also try to keep you safe. Even though you don't have inspections, we don't want you to be stuck doing a binch of expensive repairs when and if you ever try to sell the place.

Wish I lived nearby. You and I could knock that job out in a day.

 

[Jim Oaks]

can you split your lot and have them run a box to your garage so you have two meters?

like for a home business....? maybe some write offs ect...

I already have a wire going to a meter box on the shop. This is the breaker box it was connected to:

There wasn't even a main shutoff for that box. The wiring in this building was on the sketchy side.

I removed that box, cut the wire from the meter (There's no meter on the box. They removed it because the service had been cancelled), pushed the wire back through the bock, sealed the block, and painted the wall.

I had asked the local electrician about hooking that back up once I replaced the box and rewired everything, and he's the one that suggested I run it from the house. He said I'd get charged a business rate on the second meter and it would be a lot cheaper to run it from the house.

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[Jim Oaks]

And yes, I do things to what the code should be. When I replaced the vanity lights in my bathroom, I had to install a junction box because they just had a wire coming through the wall. I've found a bunch of places where there were no junction boxes. The wiring in the attic of the shop was wire nutted laying on top of the insulation with no junction box. That's why I re-wired it.

 

[Rick W]

Where are my electricians??

I want to start working on running the wire from my house to a subpanel in my shop.

The only thing that's 220 is my tankless water heater in my bathroom. I plan to have an air conditioner mounted in a wall open in the rear 'shop' portion of my building, and one in the front room of the building. I'm just using A/C units that run off a regular 120V outlet, and they will be on their own breakers. I also have an air compressor on its own breaker, and a 120V outlet for my welder.

I've been torn as to if I should have a 100 amp or 125 amp sub-panel in the shop.

I measured and it looks like I need 104 feet of wire. I may go a couple extra feet just to be safe. I'd rather have to much than come up short.

For 125 amps, Google is telling me I need:

• Aluminum wire: Use #1/0 AWG for the two hot and neutral conductors.
• Copper wire: Use #2 AWG for the two hot and neutral conductors.
• Ground wire: Use #4 AWG aluminum or #6 AWG copper.

For 100 amps, Google is telling my I need:

• Copper: Use 3 AWG copper or larger to minimize voltage drop over the 110-foot run.
• Aluminum: Use 1 AWG aluminum or larger.
• Ground wire: A #8 copper or #6 aluminum ground wire is the minimum size required.

So, for 125 amps it would be (2) 2 AWG wires for hot, (1) 2 AWG wire for neutral, and then (1) 4 AWG wire for the ground. Am I understanding correctly that this ground runs back to the main breaker box, and then there's the additional ground that goes to a copper grounding run outside of the shop?
I see the term 2-2-2-4 wire which sounds like it's what I need, but all of the 2-2-2-4 I find is stranded aluminum, not copper.

Lowes has some Southwire 1/0-1/0-1/0-2 Stranded Aluminum SER By-the-foot (not in stock) that sounds like it might be what I need.

Does it matter if it's SER or URD if it's going underground in conduit?

I saw someone on YouTube running wire, and they were measuring out 100 feet of wire from a spool and cutting three lengths of it and then putting white tape on the wire being used for neutral. It seems like buying 110 feet of 1/0-1/0-1/0-2 Stranded Aluminum would be easier than getting individual lengths.

My plan is to run the wire through the conduit as I lay it. I plan to bring it to the breaker boxes, but I was going to have a local electrician make the connections to the panels. I figure I'll save a lot of money doing most of the work and then paying a licensed electrician to connect it.

So, my questions are:

1. How many amps of service do you suggest for the shop?
2. What wire would you suggest running 110 feet?
3. Does it matter if it's SER or URD if it's underground in conduit?
4. Should I try to find copper instead of aluminum?
5. What size ground to the copper rod in the ground? (6-10 feet away)
6. Anything that I need to consider that I'm forgetting?

With Aluminum, you have to be real careful how you run it and how you end it. If you kink it, it may not show, but you can lose transmission through the spot, or it can heat up at that spot. I don’t see a problem in using Aluminum, but it’s gotta be protected everywhere It goes because it’s fragile. My preference would be copper..

If you’re gonna tap into the panel on your house, how many amps is the panel at your house? I have been told that sub panel should be like 1/3 the amperage of the main panel, and where of course all the circuits in the main panel and in the subpanel, do not overload the drop to the house

 

[scotts90ranger]

It sounds about like what I did when I ran new wire to my garage when it shorted out about a year after I moved here... the wire they buried is some lead shielded stuff... it's directly buried under the sidewalk from my driveway... I jumped up a step or two and ran 1" conduit I think it was (on the small side, really sucked with how I did it...) and went to Home Depot or Lowes and bought the length of Red, Black and Green single conductor 6 AWG I think wire and the appropriate conduit length and all the elbows (and oh did I use those elbows, 6" from the foundation, around the porch, etc...) and put in a new 125A panel with main I think

If no codes I would just do it as best you can

 

[Robertmangrum.rm]

When you get ready to pull your wires through the conduit, get some strong nylon cord, a plastic grocery bag and a shop-vac. Tie the string to the bag. Fluff up the bag and push it into the conduit. Put the string on a stick so it can spool off easily. Then go to the other end of the conduit with your shop-vac and suck the bag and string (often called a mouse) through the conduit. Use the string to pull your wires through. You do not need a fish tape.

A little bit of liquid hand soap, body wash or shampoo on the first foot or two of the wires will help them slide through the conduit easier.

I always pulled the string through the conduit as I put it together when I ran services.

 

[Curious Hound]

I always pulled the string through the conduit as I put it together when I ran services.

I found that too irritating

 

[Curious Hound]

With Aluminum, you have to be real careful how you run it and how you end it. If you kink it, it may not show, but you can lose transmission through the spot, or it can heat up at that spot. I don’t see a problem in using Aluminum, but it’s gotta be protected everywhere It goes because it’s fragile. My preference would be copper..

It’s not that fragile in the larger sizes. Copper is susceptible to the same problems when kinked. It doesn’t “lose transmission”. Not even sure what you mean by that. A severe bend or kink will cause hot spots during high current usage and that will lead to failure. In these smaller sizes, my preference is definitely copper. When using aluminum, the connection fittings and devices must be rated for aluminum wire and the wire in the connection must be coated with anti-oxidizing compound, commonly called No-alox.

If you’re gonna tap into the panel on your house, how many amps is the panel at your house? I have been told that sub panel should be like 1/3 the amperage of the main panel, and where of course all the circuits in the main panel and in the subpanel, do not overload the drop to the house

That rule would delete an awful lot of subpanels. Most homes only have a 200amp service. 1/3 would limit him to a 60amp panel. He will be fine with 100 or 125 amp subpanel. Because when he’s working out in the shop, he will not be using a lot of stuff in the house. So house loads on the main panel will be low, probably less than 50amps (air conditioner?). Furthermore, he won’t be using “everything” simultaneously in the shop. So, a few lights, maybe a fan or small window AC unit? And whatever tool he is using. Even if he’s using a welder, he probably won’t be pulling more than about 40amps from the whole subpanel. And the welder doesn’t pull squat unless he’s actually drawing an arc.

Those are the things we learn while preparing for the electrical license. Service load calculations are a huge part of that process.

 

[franklin2]

I agree with running it from the house, who wants two electric bills, paying every month a minimum charge for the garage even if you do not use hardly any electricity in it?

What I use a lot is what they sell at the electric supply houses, they call it "trailer wire". You can get it in a 100 amp version and a 200 amp version. It's aluminum, and it's 4 wires twisted together, two larger black wires for the main, a smaller white wire for the neutral and a green #6 ground wire. You just tell them how much you want and they cut it off and roll it up. It slides in a PVC conduit very easy and is easy to work with. All you have to do is make sure you buy the black grease they sell and use it on the connections at either end.

 

[Curious Hound]

I agree with running it from the house, who wants two electric bills, paying every month a minimum charge for the garage even if you do not use hardly any electricity in it?

What I use a lot is what they sell at the electric supply houses, they call it "trailer wire". You can get it in a 100 amp version and a 200 amp version. It's aluminum, and it's 4 wires twisted together, two larger black wires for the main, a smaller white wire for the neutral and a green #6 ground wire. You just tell them how much you want and they cut it off and roll it up. It slides in a PVC conduit very easy and is easy to work with. All you have to do is make sure you buy the black grease they sell and use it on the connections at either end.

That stuff is good. It can be stiff going around bends. To counteract this, in some of the larger conduit sizes, they make “sweeps”. A sweep is a bend with a larger radius than the normal bend.

I believe “trailer wire is also called “triplex”. It can be direct buried (24” deep instead of conduit at 18”). But must be protected by conduit anywhere it is exposed above ground. I would usually run conduit from the meter can or breaker panel down into the trench with the sweep in the bottom do the triplex is protected down to the full 24” depth.

 

[Shran]

If your power company doesn't charge for additional meters then that is a moot point. My power company charges me $10 a month for the privilege of receiving two bills for the second meter on my shop. That is a small amount of money but it is annoying nonetheless - so far it has added up to about $1200. I can tie the house into the shop and get rid of one meter but the house is so far out of code that it will need a bunch of work...so I keep putting it off.

Anyway regarding aluminum wire - there is NOTHING wrong with using that for feeds between panels/buildings/etc when you need large wire. I believe I mentioned this before, you can for sure get copper in large sizes, but it is REALLY expensive and you gain nothing. A lot of overhead power lines are aluminum with steel reinforcement strands. It's really only a problem in small gauge wire used for things like individual circuits.

 

[Jim Oaks]

Why can't I run the wire through the conduit as I lay it?