My New House & Workshop

[Curious Hound]

Let me guess, that involves replacing the wire between the box and the meter.

Yup. If power is disconnected, this is a great time to fix it all. Is the meter just not there? Or is there no connection to the nearest pole?

That whole service may only be rated for 60amps. That means that for a 100amp service, you would also need a higher rated meter box and also the cable feeding the meter.

If there is no physical cable connection right now, it would be easy for an electrician to build the new service and get it ready because everything is de-energized and safe.

 

[Jim Oaks]

There's a meter present that lights up, but no power to the building. It was on when I first moved here, but the previous owner turned it off and I haven't had it turned back on.

If I need to upgrade to 100 amp I guess I'll have to get an electrician that can replace the wires from the meter.

 

[Curious Hound]

There's a meter present that lights up, but no power to the building. It was on when I first moved here, but the previous owner turned it off and I haven't had it turned back on.

If I need to upgrade to 100 amp I guess I'll have to get an electrician that can replace the wires from the meter.

At the very least, get a licensed electrician familiar with local codes to look it over. There's only so much I can figure out from the pictures.

I wired my garage with a 60amp panel. But it's an attached garage. No A/C or heat. I just have lights, a few receptacle circuits and a 230volt, 30amp welding outlet. My 230volt air compressor is in the main panel at the other end of the house.

 

[Jim Oaks]

I wonder if I can get by with the service that's there if I replace the 230 outlets for the A/C units and use 115 volt A/C units. Then just have a 220 outlet for a welder that probably won't be used that much.

At least if I updated the box it should cost less to get an electrician to upgrade the wires going to the box for 100 amp.

 

[Jim Oaks]

I might be better off keeping the 230 volt AC outlets if I want to keep amp usage down. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I just found this:

"Air conditioners of 230 volts use a dedicated higher voltage circuit, much like the type that powers an oven or electric clothes dryer. Because the voltage is higher, they generally draw less amperage than their 115 volt counterparts, but they also need a specific outlet to support their higher voltage needs. For example, an 18,000 BTU 230-volt air conditioner draws approximately 8 amps of power. "

 

[Curious Hound]

I might be better off keeping the 230 volt AC outlets if I want to keep amp usage down. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I just found this:

"Air conditioners of 230 volts use a dedicated higher voltage circuit, much like the type that powers an oven or electric clothes dryer. Because the voltage is higher, they generally draw less amperage than their 115 volt counterparts, but they also need a specific outlet to support their higher voltage needs. For example, an 18,000 BTU 230-volt air conditioner draws approximately 8 amps of power. "

For the same btu output, an air conditioner on 115 volts will use twice as much current as a 230 volt unit. But only on one hot leg. The overall power used is the same. At 230volts, you get to use a smaller breaker and smaller wire.

 

[Roert42]

5. The cables must be supported within a certain distance after leaving the box. I believe it is 12". But I would have to review that

12" from the box, 4.5' thereafter.

The electric isn't turned on to that building. It has it's own meter. I'm thinking I could label everything, take photos, disconnect all the wires, remove the box, put the wires in conduit, feed them in to a new box, drink a pepsi, and then wire everything back in the way it was in the old box. I can use my Black & Decker complete guide to wiring book if I need to.

I'd also like to add a 220 circuit for a welder, and another 110 outlet on it's own circuit for an air compressor.

The building has 2 outlets for air conditioners with 230 plugs. So I'm guessing 2 of those breakers must work those.

I installed a 100a sub in my garage. 20a 110v circuit for all the receptacles, 15a 110v for LED lighting, 20a 110v for the air compressor up in the attic, then a 50a 220v for the welders (one plug for both).

Just like @Rick W was telling you now is the best time to move the bathroom, now is also the best time to put in a bigger panel. If you want to upgrade to 100a later you are going to have the power company come out and turn off the power, upgrade the line, replace the meter, blah, blah, blah. Probably cost you a couple extra bucks in materials and could do most of it yourself.

 

[Jim Oaks]

Friday I had the tenants evicted from my shop.

Honey bees had made a hive under the eave and roof in the back corner. I had a bee keeper come and extract the bees and honeycombs.

In this pic most of the bees and the queen are in that box. The bees on top of the screen are trying to get on because the queen is in there.

 

[don4331]

I should probably do something about this breaker box in my shop.

People don't want gov't oversight, then we see $#!+ like that. And there is code and then there is safe/smart.

That sub panel is designed to be used as a remote off an existing breaker panel, not directly off the meter - you want to be able to turn off power from the meter without having to call the electrical company to turn off the meter/turn meter back on. It can be solved by having a. an electrical disconnect box (panel with 1 breaker of say 60A) which would in turn connect to your current load center. or b. the panel with main breaker and spaces for additional breakers. Without main breaker, you have all the current the meter could supply available to the panel, and there are way more than 60A of breakers in that box. And the wires to the main terminals don't look anything required for the breaker in that panel.

Federal Pioneer breakers aren't available anymore! - my house dates from '95 and I want to do a couple more renos without having to replace the main panel and I know the panel downstairs is FP stab loc. And now having read the details about FP, I'm even less happy.

For breaker wiring, there 5 normal cases:

14/2 for 115v/15 amp normal wire for 90% of household wiring here in Canada; black wire plugged into 15A single pole breaker in panel, white and copper wires connected to appropriate bars on back of panel. No more than 6 disconnects on the circuit.​

14/3 for 115v/15 amp primarily used for 3 and 4 way switches.​

12/2 for 115v/20 amp heavy duty circuits with standard 2 or 3 pin cord; black wire plugged into 20A single pole breaker in panel, white and copper wires connected to appropriate bars on back of panel. Note: you must have at least 2 outlet boxes on the 20A circuit if using std outlet boxes​

10/2 for 230v/30 amp circuits e.g. my jointer, where you just need 230v power. Black and white wires plugged into 30A double pole breaker, copper wires connected to appropriate bars on back of panel (I like to add a little black electrical tape on both ends of the wire to show that instead of being a neutral wire, it is in hot). Required special 3 prong plug to ensure nothing gets damaged.​

10/3 for 230v/30 amp circuits, where you just need 230v and a little 115v power. Black and red wires plugged into 30A double pole breaker, white and copper wires connected to appropriate bars on back of panel Required special plug to ensure nothing gets damaged. Required special 4 prong plug (black and red = 230v, black and white = 115v to ensure nothing gets damaged.​

Everything above is heavier wire for more current and breakers to match.​

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So, red wires should NEVER be wired to a single pole breaker. And you shouldn't be wiring multiple circuits to a 30A breaker, just to save purchasing a couple breakers.

The issues with lack of support/exposed romex/missing cable clamps at box are already noted. I'd replace the panel and properly connect all the wires.

Note: For my garage, the sub panel is for the outlets in the garage; the lights come off the main panel and very specific circuit at that. That way, even if I trip the sub panel beaker, the lights remain on - important when running table saw.

*Double pole breaker is what Eric calls twin with each hot leg are physically interlocked to ensure that if one leg trips, it also opens the breaker for the other leg. Incorrectly wired 230v is probably the most dangerous "feature" of that box. 1/2 circuit could trip, appliance would stop and you would think circuit it off, but other side would still be hot. Mismatch between wire size and the breaker is 2nd. Everything else just needs a little clean up.

 

[franklin2]

In my area, if you need the electric company to pull the meter so you can re-wire it, they won't put the meter back in until it has a local inspection tag on it. Maybe your elec company doesn't have this rule. If they do, you might want to do the least amount of work possible and just install the new feed wires and the box, with just a few circuits, so there is less to inspect. Then you can add other stuff later. The cost of the project drives up the fees they charge for the inspection.

 

[Curious Hound]

So, red wires should NEVER be wired to a single pole breaker

Perhaps in Canada. In the US, black, red and blue wires are all acceptable for use as hot wires on 230/115volt circuits, even single pole circuits. I could go in there with conduit and rolls of individual wire and wire every single pole circuit with red as the hot wire. Its legal. It’s safe and it works.

 

[Jim Oaks]

A little time and paint goes a long way towards improving the looks of the house. Here's some before and after pics of my kitchen. I painted the walls, trim, cabinets, added cabinets handles, and switched out the light fixtures, switches and outlets.

 

[don4331]

I always get myself in trouble when I use absolutes:

@ericbphoto is 100% correct, black, red and blue wires are all acceptable for use as hot wires on 115v circuits. But for purposes of this discussion, where @Jim Oaks is working with x/2 and x/3 wires, he will should have a black wire for the hot circuit. As a result, there is no reason for Jim to connect the red as a hot wire. I wouldn't want Jim to accidentally wire a circuit 230v or to attempt to use black for one circuit, red for a 2nd with the white as "common" neutral.

If Jim finds a roll of x/2 with red, white and copper, or if he installs conduit and pulls red, white and copper, then connecting red would be acceptable.

But that is not how the box is currently wired.​

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If he feel patriotic, and pulls red, white, blue and copper, he can use red and blue as is 230v power, white as neutral, and copper as ground.

Apologies for attempting to simplify without explaining why.

 

[rumblecloud]

Your remodel looks awesome!! Nicely done.

 

[Jazzer]

Kitchen (and dining room table) look great, Jim. Totally new look!

-Jazzer