Gas vs Diesel

[superds]

how do get fire from key switch to starter on 1988 ford ranger how many wires hook to starter

Through the starter solenoid. One wire. But you questions don't address how you feel about gas vs. diesel engines.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Through the starter solenoid. One wire. But you questions don't address how you feel about gas vs. diesel engines.

If he had a mechanical diesel all he would have to do is jump it at the solenoid to start it. With a gas you can't do that.

So now we are back on topic.

 

[kryptonitecb]

New diesels are still out performing new trucks at every turn. When you compare power output to mpg diesels win. And they likely always will. It's the way they are made.

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[adsm08]

New diesels are still out performing new trucks at every turn. When you compare power output to mpg diesels win. And they likely always will. It's the way they are made.

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Guess you have never seen a 6.7L transform into boxer mode.

 

[adsm08]

I have put 85k miles (111k miles on it currently) on it and have put $40 into it for repairs aside from brakes, tires and fluid changes... sway bar end links.

Get ready to chuck a couple hundred at cam phasers if that is a 3-valve.

 

[Ozwynn]

New diesels are still out performing new trucks at every turn. When you compare power output to mpg diesels win. And they likely always will. It's the way they are made.

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the slightly higher mileage and extra power do not justify the initial cost, more than double maint. cost, outrageously expensive when it breaks and nearly a dollar more a gallon fuel for the average truck owner.

Lets not forget the overly complicated fuel delivery and emission systems or extremely tempermental high pressure fuel pumps that can be trashed by less than a drop of water in the fuel.

Now if you got a ginormous 5th wheel, or drive more that 100,000 miles a year, or use your truck commercially then Diesel is likely for you.

I love diesel engines. I hate maintaining them. For the amount that I use my pick up just wouldn't justify the cost of ownership in a diesel.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Get ready to chuck a couple hundred at cam phasers if that is a 3-valve.

2002 is a 2v.

If/when I upgrade I will skip the 3v for the 5.0 because of that (if the 5.0 continues to hold up)

And since I said that I have replaced a unit wheel bearing and a lower ball joint... fairly normal for the milage either '150 or '250/350. Considering the roads it has been over I am halfway impressed it has lasted as long as it has.

 

[V8RangerBoy]

I'll chime in on this. By no means am I claiming to be the end-all, be-all of the argument here (not like the debate will ever end). However, I am a full-time mechanic at an extremely busy 5-bay, 4-mechanic shop in a large ag community. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but being this is a Ford forum, I'm sure someone is going to hate this. So, for what it's worth...

A few general opinions/notes: First, I feel that the majority of people who do own diesels simply shouldn't. It is very important to understand that really ANY diesel repair will cost you at least twice what the same gas engine repair will. Common misconceptions are that diesel engines are simple, easy to maintain and run forever. Modern diesels are extremely finicky, they are complex to diagnose correctly, and the labor times for the repairs are rather insane. Even 'simple' repairs will reach $1000 in a hurry.

Ford diesels... bread and butter of our business, hands down. As a rough rule, we will always have 2-3x as many Ford's on the lot as any other make. 7.3's... injector faults, glow plugs, and leaks are the common points. Most common cold start problems of any engine. Definitely the most reliable (6.7 excluded here, we don't see them yet) of the Fords but also the least desirable power delivery and trans package of the bunch. Rare to see engine problems with, all in all. As Ford's go, 7.3 is the one to stick with in my opinion.

6.0... haha. My favorite Ford, hands down. My stall has seen MANY week-long streaks of nothing but 6.0's. With deep enough pockets, they can be made 'reliable'. Keep in mind that the scope of the word 'reliable' with a 6.0 doesn't mean much. I will end the discussion here, feel free to ask if you want more details. I have plenty to offer.

6.4... basically a 6.0. Many people will tell you that it isn't, but put the two engines side by side and the 6.4 is essentially a 6.0 with a true common rail system and two turbos and two EGR coolers. This is an amazing engine/trans combo when they run correctly, however.

Cummins, good stuff. These are quite simple to work on relative to other makes. The auto trans is definitely the weak point on this powertrain, even in the new stuff. Stick to the 5- and 6-speed variants if you can. Early 24 valves (98-02) are excellent engines with minor fuel supply upgrades. Everyone argues this is an 'old stereotype', but I'll say it anyway. The rest of the truck will fall apart around these engines. The early common rail 24's (03-04) have many pattern injector failures that are engine eaters. I've replaced numerous engines in these. We're talking $9-13k replacements, fyi. Is this COMMON? No, but much, much more so than any other make. The new 6.7 has proven itself well with us so far. I had to replace one auto trans in a 100k mile truck, which is supposedly a pattern problem. Other than that, no complaints or much in-depth repair experience with them.

Duramax... Epic. Early ones were prone to injector problems, which GM remedied with a 7-yr, 200k mile warranty extension. Some head gasket problems, but rare compared to 6.0 head gasket failures. Definitely the most expensive and difficult to work on, but easily the ones we work on the least. The Allison is untouchable, especially the 6-speeds.

Sorry, ran out of time and didn't get to post everything I wanted to. I will try to come back and contrast this with gas powertrain info - hopefully I remember!

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

My brother says if a 7.3 isn't leaking it isn't happy.

The 6.4 has been pretty good around here if you "break" the lower radiator mounts so it doesn't get flexed with the radiator support. The lower mounts are rectangular from the factory, make them square so it isn't really tight and the radiataor problem goes away. Ironically it ends up kinda like how they had my first gen Ranger set up from the factory (with round posts in an oval slot)

The 6.4 may look the same as a 6.0 but they do stay together a lot better. Throw a 2" bodylift on it and is fairly easy to get at stuff too. Swap to the 6.0 front clip and I think it would be a fairly nice truck if I needed a diesel.

Another thing... Ford makes a ton more trucks than the other guys so seeing a bunch more in and out the door doesn't always mean they have more problems.

 

[kryptonitecb]

the slightly higher mileage and extra power do not justify the initial cost, more than double maint. cost, outrageously expensive when it breaks and nearly a dollar more a gallon fuel for the average truck owner.

Lets not forget the overly complicated fuel delivery and emission systems or extremely tempermental high pressure fuel pumps that can be trashed by less than a drop of water in the fuel.

Now if you got a ginormous 5th wheel, or drive more that 100,000 miles a year, or use your truck commercially then Diesel is likely for you.

I love diesel engines. I hate maintaining them. For the amount that I use my pick up just wouldn't justify the cost of ownership in a diesel.

The original post was referencing NEW diesels not used ones with a few miles on them.

Diesels made in the last decade or more are not your dad's or grandfather's old diesel. Do a little bit of research before you start spouting off about that one time a buddy of yours heard of another guy having a problem with a drop of water in the fuel.

And have you looked at the avg mpg for diesels compared to gas? A diesel towing a trailer will get 10-16 mpg depending on make and model. The same version with a gas motor will get sustainably less than 10mpg.

By the way gas today was $3.39 a gallon, diesel was $3.89. That's not a dollar difference. And my VW Jetta is a diesel and gets 35 mpg all day long, the gas version gets around 25 mpg. So why is the gas one better/cheaper?

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[85_Ranger4x4]

The original post was referencing NEW diesels not used ones with a few miles on them.

Diesels made in the last decade or more are not your dad's or grandfather's old diesel. Do a little bit of research before you start spouting off about that one time a buddy of yours heard of another guy having a problem with a drop of water in the fuel.

And have you looked at the avg mpg for diesels compared to gas? A diesel towing a trailer will get 10-16 mpg depending on make and model. The same version with a gas motor will get sustainably less than 10mpg.

By the way gas today was $3.39 a gallon, diesel was $3.89. That's not a dollar difference. And my VW Jetta is a diesel and gets 35 mpg all day long, the gas version gets around 25 mpg. So why is the gas one better/cheaper?

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The problem I have with a new diesel is THEY ARE NOT dads or grandpa's diesel. The electrical system consists of more than a charging and starting system. They don't only ask for a pump job or injectors every two decades. If you gel them in the cold you don't just let them sit with kero and thaw.

No, now they are wired like a NASA satellite, all kinds of crazy coolers and sensors to screw up and if you gel up you are almost for sure at least buying a set of injectors.

If it was a diesel with a pump on the side of the engine, hardlines going to injectors and a return line going to the tank... game on. IMO that is where it is at. All the extra whiz-bang crap does nothing for me.

Spend a ton of money deleting the crud and they really wake up, both for power and fuel economy... that tells me that it doesn't really do anything for the engine either.

New would be great, somebody else to foot the repairs. Just trade the thing in before the warrenty is out or lease it and think to yourself of all the money you are saving making payments vs buying more fuel.

Personally 35mpg isn't that impressive for a car especially a diesel. Not out of the norm of a gas car. A 4cyl Ranger could get better milage than a gas Jetta? That is... very impressive.

 

[bigmark303]

By the way gas today was $3.39 a gallon, diesel was $3.89. That's not a dollar difference. And my VW Jetta is a diesel and gets 35 mpg all day long, the gas version gets around 25 mpg. So why is the gas one better/cheaper?

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Car gas vs diesel is a whole new category. Diesel car versions vs gas are worth it all day. lower to the ground, smaller tires, less weight, much more aerodynamic, geared toward fuel economy, and pretty much has everything going for it to gain the most out of economy and value.

Truck gas vs diesel is pushing a brick wall against the wind that weighs 2x-3x of a car with very little going for it as far as fuel economy or practicality for road commuting. A diesel truck will never pull the numbers over a gas truck that a diesel car can pull over a gas car.

About all a diesel pickup truck will do over a gas is haul its maximum designed payload easier and return a few more mpg. Other than that the majority of people who own a diesel pickup truck have not even close to the need for one over a gas pickup truck.

To each their own and the option is there to choose gas vs diesel in a pickup. That's the great thing about having these options but when it comes down to being practical a diesel pickup is just overkill for such a small application.

I myself like the raw power appeal of the diesel but that's about where it ends. Got a 6.0 turbo diesel and its a beast but complete overkill for the 6 and 12 ton dump trailers we pull with it. The V10 gasser we have actually pulls better between 40-55mph on the highway when its loaded with shingles and other garbage from the roofers. Company owner just got a new 6.7 diesel and for a pickup truck id have to completely illegal to max out its capability of weight it can haul on the road. We used it once to pull the 30ft tool trailer that weighs about 15 ton. It didn't feel much different that pulling that trailer with the V10 gasser. We have over 250,000 miles on the gasser from stop and go because we work off of referrals in a small area of 3 towns. supply runs and dump runs on top of hauling the trailers to the job is all the V10 does and we haven't had to put a dime into the truck compared to the diesels we have and have had with less mileage and stupid repair bills.

We use the V10 gasser every single day and I see absolutely no need for a diesel when the V10 does most of the work without an issue and has been dead reliable. We average 3 roofs a week on top of using that V10 to run the tool trailer around job to job in between for the custom house building side of the business. If the diesels not in our shop being repaired for ridiculous money I get maybe a trouble free 2-3 weeks out of it in which it doesn't do anymore than the V10.

 

[kryptonitecb]

I know multiple people driving diesel trucks. One gets 18 mpg with a 2008 f-350 and the other drives a 2004 cummins and gets 20 mpg both when unloaded. How is that worse than a gas version? When loaded they get a respective 8 mpg and 14 mpg. Y'all might want to do some research before you keep praising gas engines as being the most amazing thing man has ever made.

Also look at a new/er gas engine, they too look like nasa wired it up. Sensors are overly abundant on them as well. If you want to compare the two equally then do so. If not pirate4x4 would love to have your style comments in the chit-chat section.

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[85_Ranger4x4]

I know multiple people driving diesel trucks. One gets 18 mpg with a 2008 f-350 and the other drives a 2004 cummins and gets 20 mpg both when unloaded. How is that worse than a gas version? When loaded they get a respective 8 mpg and 14 mpg. Y'all might want to do some research before you keep praising gas engines as being the most amazing thing man has ever made.

8mpg loaded out of your buddies '08 F-250 and you are arguing their virtues over a gasser? Dang that is a very worthwhile option I would stand in a line for to pay an extra $11k dollars to call mine.

Also look at a new/er gas engine, they too look like nasa wired it up. Sensors are overly abundant on them as well. If you want to compare the two equally then do so.

EGR cooler is where?
DPF is where? Lasts how long? (few stay on after warrenty is out and people have to pay out of pocket)
DEF goes where?
Pull the cab for what?
High pressure oil pump is where?
Second water pump is where?
Second battery is where?
Change fuel filterS how often?

It just never ends, you gotta pay to play...

Gas engines have been playing the wiring game for 30 years and runner cleaner for the EPA jumping through fewer hoops. I still maintain modern diesels are about where gassers were 25 years ago... just starting to figure things out. If the EPA settles down they might get there, if they keep moving the target for diesels I don't know if they ever will.

Given my druthers for long term durability I would rather have a carb and points. Yeah not as great for enviroment, performance... whatever. You can rewire it in a few hours. A carb kit is $30... just cheap and easy. But cars don't last long enough for that to really be a concern with anyway. I am talking more my 60 and 70 year old tractors here.

If not pirate4x4 would love to have your style comments in the chit-chat section.

The opinions of those clowns will concern me about the same time as I start taking the scribblings in public restrooms to heart.

I talk to farmers face to face every day, my brother is a Sr Master Tech at a Ford dealer and we talk about it all the time. I will take their word a lot more at face value than some clown on a website that is well known for people that like to blow smoke out of orffices and rip people down.

 

[Ozwynn]

I've had more than a few pick ups....... 5 of those where diesels so don't assume I know nothing about them. the brand new 6.7L powerstroke is all over the internet with people complaining about finicky high pressure fuel pumps being toasted with just a little water contamination ($9k-$12K to fix)

I also owned trucking company for a while and know very well about the cost of maintaining diesels.

before you accuse me again of spouting off at the mouth about that one time my friend's buddy's father's daughter's POS 6.5 turbo diesel puked because of water in the fuel you better actually read what I wrote.

If you tow alot or hve a giant 5th wheel or use your pick up commercially then diesel is for you. if you occasionally tow a 6 or 7 thousand pound trailer and daily drive your pick up (wich you really should not be doing) then diesel is most likely not for you as its cost of maint. is double.

as far as nearly a dollar more for fuel..... today I put gas in the buick and it was $3.579. Automotive diesel $4.299 ...... thats 72 cents different.... closer to a dollar than it is to 30 cents.... thats nearly a dollar.

I was using my Uncle's 98 4.6L F150 4x4 to move over spring break. I averaged 17mpg with the automatic, granted I never got over 60 but it did get 17. my 7.3L powerstroke got a best of 16 with the cruise set at 55.... apples to oranges comparison because my powerstroke was in a 96 F-350 4 door fatback. fyi, my brother's 2001 Tundra only averaged 15.

I am not praising gas engines. The statement has been made that for the AVERAGE pick up owner the mileage and power does not justify the initial cost, maintenance cost, and higher fuel cost of a diesel pick up.

Do I wish my Excursion had a 7.3L.... you bet. Is the V10 easier to maintain, certainly... The V10 motivates that 7200 pound Excursion away from the light like dropping a piano from the 10th floor and still gets 10 towing my 30' travel trailer which it may do 2 times a year.