Dually rear end swap question

[rusty ol ranger]

Thanks for the clarification, I was hoping it wasn't really necessary.

Unfourantly it is.

I know when the sensor quit on my 97 F250 it wouldnt even shift outta first and if i bumped it manually it shifted so hard it barked the tires

 

[lowspeedpursuit]

If you want to know what will happen 100%, go unplug your RABS sensor and drive around the block.

If you go into limp mode or lose something important, you'll have to keep it working. If you lose ABS and that doesn't bother you, you can do whatever you want.

 

[wellcraft]

I guess this is what I will need but something that somehow works with that old diff.

rear differential drive shaft speed sensor kit - Google Search

 

[don4331]

I guess this is what I will need but something that somehow works with that old diff.

rear differential drive shaft speed sensor kit - Google Search

That's almost exactly what I made.

I worked in an engineering design house at the time - with access to CAD/mills/lathes/breaks/welders/etc/etc in the protoshop. (The MTB tandem was built at the same time).​

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Converting to a lower-tooth-count tone ring on the driveshaft is brilliant, but I guess I don't really understand why it works? Not sure if this is a derail, since it seems like OP cares very much about keeping ABS.

I get that both setups are 29 pulses/output shaft rev, and I guess maybe the computer can track output shaft revs via the speed sensor?

I would have said input shaft, not output.

The 108/3.73 is just an example. If I had 4.10 gears would have been 108/4.1 = 26.4, so 26 teeth on the tone ring. Not quite as nice, but close enough to convince the computer the rear axle was turning the correct speed. Divide by the appropriate number for the ratio you are using and machine the corresponding toothed ring. Note: While this works fine for my '98 with just RABS, full ABS would freak at the difference at highway speeds. <In theory, there is a way to tell the computer you have a 7.5" (102t tone ring), then 102/4.1 =24.9, close enough to 25 that ABS should be happy. But I didn't have to sort that out in Forscan>.​

Note that I never said I have a Toyota rear axle. I tried, but I could never find one for the price I wanted to pay (>$300 * 7 - 14 x 5J Toyota dually rims really slowed me down).

I found that the dually Sprinter vans came with 16x5.5J rims. OEM tires on the Sprinter were 215/85R16. 205/65R16 looked more appropriate on a 2wd Ranger, IMHO. So, think Ford 9" with Chevrolet Dana 44 front axle spindles hubs (gets 6x5.5 pattern/effectively they make it full floater) then adapters to the 6x205 pattern for the Sprinter rims. Caddy Eldorado calipers work with discs on the hubs and provide both regular & parking brakes.​

The snout on the 9" makes for easy mounting of the sensor.​

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Just properly proportion the rear brakes before driving on gravel.​

 

[lowspeedpursuit]

The 108/3.73 is just an example. If I had 4.10 gears would have been 108/4.1 = 26.4, so 26 teeth on the tone ring. Not quite as nice, but close enough to convince the computer the rear axle was turning the correct speed.

Sorry, I don't know anything about how anything works.

What I don't understand is, if the ABS computer in a given truck cares about seeing a pulse rate that's dependent on your gear ratio, why doesn't ABS fail if you regear that truck?

Like if my truck came with 3.23, and I regear to 4.56, that's 108/3.23 = 33 -> 108/4.56 = 24, a 27% decrease. If what my ABS computer wants to see is "33 pulses at the RABS sensor per whatever denotes one rev at the VSS", I would expect it to freak out.

 

[don4331]

Sorry, I don't know anything about how anything works.

What I don't understand is, if the ABS computer in a given truck cares about seeing a pulse rate that's dependent on your gear ratio, why doesn't ABS fail if you regear that truck?

Like if my truck came with 3.23, and I regear to 4.56, that's 108/3.23 = 33 -> 108/4.56 = 24, a 27% decrease. If what my ABS computer wants to see is "33 pulses at the RABS sensor per whatever denotes one rev at the VSS", I would expect it to freak out.

1st of all the ABS computer isn't real sophisticated in the early Rangers.

The VSS in the Ranger is pulling it signal off the tone ring - which is on the differential (referring to the actual differential inside the axle housing i.e. after the gears)

For RABS, Ford engineers were just looking for an abnormal decrease in speed

e.g. The differential was turning 100 rpm (10,800 pulses/min) on sample one; and the next sample there isn't a pulse (rear wheels locked up), it sends input to the RABS to release pressure. Because, it is after the gears, it didn't care if your driveshaft was turning 323rpm (3.23 gears), or 456 rpm (4.56 gears).​

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There is a little sophistication to the RABS - So the system does freak out when you come to a stop, once the pulses get below a certain value (e.g. 100 pulses/minute), if the next sample is zero, the system understands the truck is stopped and doesn't activate the RABS.​

Fitting a tone ring onto a Toyota (or Ford 9") would require opening up the rear axle, removing the differential, fitting a Ford tone ring on the Toyota carrier, drilling holes to mount and secure the sensor, and reassembling. All without disturbing the gear mesh - not impossible but a lot of work. Putting the sensor on the snout is a lot less work.

As Rangers progressed, the ABS became more sophisticated. In addition to pulling from the rear axle, Ford added sensors at each of the front wheels for "full" ABS.

Now if you change tires e.g. you put 33x12.50R15s (33" tall) on the back and leave the fronts as 235/75R15s (29" tall), (33"/29" = ~14% increase), the ABS will freak out.​

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And for the '10-11s and '19+ with stability control, it has sensors at each of the rear wheels.

Does that help?

 

[wellcraft]

Ok, a little update. I found a few companies that sells aftermaket speed sensors but it looks like I won't be able to get this to work unless I spend a ton of money.

The first guy was awesome, he thought he was going to be able to get the correct part to make it work until he saw the pics of the diff and realized it wasn't a Dana 60 rear end.

The toyota diff It's a toyota 8" housing trusses welded on the bottom across the axle tubes. Full float hubs with 6 lug at 7-1/4" spacing and it was built in Asia.

Then he suggested me to call 2 other companies, one of them offers a speed sensor but in order to work I need to replace the ecu with an aftermarket unit which I looked and it cost about $1500. I haven't heard from the other company but at this point I'm feeling that this will be a lost cause.

My other option is to go with spacers which it's my last resort or go with a sterling 10.25 as someone else suggested me but it will nee to be shortened, im sure to the correct width and I'm almost positive it could get pricey.

 

[Curious Hound]

Speed sensor is optional. It's a bastardized Ranger. Who needs to know how slow it's going?

 

[bobbywalter]

wow. this is horrible.


1st. the axle is a neat piece. looks to me like the 66.5 typical wms. the e series ist 67...the one in my ranger is 66.xx


full floater axles are easy to narrow. but running duals....you really need it at least 65 inches wide unless you narrow the frame. often that is exactly what happened to make them fit better on normal beds. this was a known swap for a spell in the 90s mini scene(not rangers but luvs and stuff) in certain areas.

that said, a later dana from a e series is the axle you want. will be disk brake....sane ratio and plug and play for the speedo and abs system. parts are ridiculously available from u pull yards CHEEEEEEEEP. these axles are typically 75 to 150 bux in working order.

fitting longer studs will be a thing...otherwise some 16 duals and your gtg.


also you can flange mount tone rings to the drive shaft to use any axle you want.

lots of ways to do that.

if your going to fit the matching 6 lug beam axle then for sure carry on with it.

otherwise, i would use a 60.

 

[bobbywalter]

secondary to this, those of us that regularly do swaps and work on rigs know the default c&c 14 bolts for building with.

it is 63.5 wms and possibly too narrow depending on what wheels are used. though may be perfect. i know they have been used on rbv in single wheel applications as i have used them.

 

[wellcraft]

wow. this is horrible.


1st. the axle is a neat piece. looks to me like the 66.5 typical wms. the e series ist 67...the one in my ranger is 66.xx


full floater axles are easy to narrow. but running duals....you really need it at least 65 inches wide unless you narrow the frame. often that is exactly what happened to make them fit better on normal beds. this was a known swap for a spell in the 90s mini scene(not rangers but luvs and stuff) in certain areas.

that said, a later dana from a e series is the axle you want. will be disk brake....sane ratio and plug and play for the speedo and abs system. parts are ridiculously available from u pull yards CHEEEEEEEEP. these axles are typically 75 to 150 bux in working order.

fitting longer studs will be a thing...otherwise some 16 duals and your gtg.


also you can flange mount tone rings to the drive shaft to use any axle you want.

lots of ways to do that.

if your going to fit the matching 6 lug beam axle then for sure carry on with it.

otherwise, i would use a 60.

Thanks for the advice, I was planning to get some adapters to be able to use ford or Chevy wheels but I guess I'm going to have to sell this one, I hope I can get my money back if I can't find a tone ring that works for the driveshaft.

I'm very interest in learning more about the e series option. What year range more or less the e seris has to be, can it be either e150, e250 or e350?

We have a pull a part here in augusta ga so I could go there and checkif something is available.

As for wheels, I would like to get the classic style bullet holes dually wheels, if not 16" or 17" from an f350, most likely 16"s.

Thank you very much for suggesting that other option. I DO really want to do this conversion, somehow.

 

[wellcraft]

Speed sensor is optional. It's a bastardized Ranger. Who needs to know how slow it's going?

Unfortunately my 2002 ranger has the vss in the rear differential and it has something to do with the transmission. That's the only reason I need the speed sensor.

 

[2011Supercab]

What I don't understand is, if the ABS computer in a given truck cares about seeing a pulse rate that's dependent on your gear ratio, why doesn't ABS fail if you regear that truck?

It's not dependent on gear ratio, It's mounted on the carrier so it's measuring axle shaft revolutions, it could care less how fast the pinion gear is spinning.

If you put the tone ring on the pinion flange between the pinion and driveshaft, then you need to account for gear ratio.

 

[Rick W]

Thanks for the advice, I was planning to get some adapters to be able to use ford or Chevy wheels but I guess I'm going to have to sell this one, I hope I can get my money back if I can't find a tone ring that works for the driveshaft.

I'm very interest in learning more about the e series option. What year range more or less the e seris has to be, can it be either e150, e250 or e350?

We have a pull a part here in augusta ga so I could go there and checkif something is available.

As for wheels, I would like to get the classic style bullet holes dually wheels, if not 16" or 17" from an f350, most likely 16"s.

Thank you very much for suggesting that other option. I DO really want to do this conversion, somehow.

A few more thoughts:

Pull-a-part doesn’t have a big selection of Dually trucks, some pick ups, but nothing commercial I’m still thinking the Toyota or maybe an Isuzu axle with the wheels might be the most practical, not that there’s anything practical about the project, huh?

And I know your 2002 is a little bit bigger than my 97 and my 87, but I’m still thinking those wheels are going to be way too heavy duty and huge for what you’re trying to do. The Dually wheels on my C 20s were heavyweight and a challenge even on those trucks. The pre-electronic Toyota steel Dually wheels I used years ago probably weighed half as much as an F350 wheel. And the bullet hole design is pretty universal. If it wasn’t an exact match, with the right center caps, folks might not notice or it might be close enough.

I’ve never been to the pull apart in Augusta, but I’ve been to the three in Atlanta on a pretty regular basis for the last few years. The pull apart in south Atlanta has many more trucks than the other two here. I assume you’re aware that you can search inventory online.

That south pull apart is down by Moreland Avenue and 285 if you are familiar with Atlanta. There are also a couple of big rig truck yards in that area, and a couple other yards around town that deal with more commercial stuff. It’s a 2 1/2 hour drive, but if you get the right stuff, it’ll probably save you days on your build.

And I want to be careful what I volunteer these days because I’m a sick beat up old fart, but if you’re coming to Atlanta to do something or other, I’d be happy to help.

 

[2011Supercab]

Mount the tone ring here/ or at other end of driveshaft between the flanges if possible