Non Ranger issue

[James Morse]

Because I get good answers here, and vehicles have at least some things in common.
2002 Lexus RX300, 263k miles. Other half got it from her dad, I guess they took some maintenance or it wouldn't be running.
She has taken it on several 1000+ trips it's been fine. Except lately. She complained it shakes sometimes. So I drove it yesterday. Here's the deal.
After short (10 miles?) and moderate speed in-town trip, I noticed it, pronounced shaking, almost thumping, so much it actually makes the steering wheel wobble. But it comes and goes (intermittent) which of course is hardest to diagnose.
I'm saying not tire balance/wear because that would happen at certain speeds always and not come and go. It seems to be about 35-40 mph, she says "it goes away at 70" and I told her I'd never drive a car at 70 that acts like this.
So after the short trip, I felt the wheels, and driver side front was so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it, other side, not hot. Outboard brake pad that (driver) side low, but not dragging the warning clips (looks like about ready to do so). Vented rotor looks nice and smooth.
I diagnose that as that the caliper isn't fully releasing and it's wearing the outside (at least) pad. It was inspected not many miles ago and they didn't say anything about pads almost gone so I'm hypothesizing the pad is wearing quick because it's like you're riding the brake all the time and it's heating up the rotor and (maybe?) causing the terrible shaking, like a wheel is about to come off (don't think it's that).
E-brake wasn't left on, if you click it even one click the car beeps and brake warning comes on so about zero chance she did that plus I think e-brake is on the rear.

Here's my question: I read on a Google post that if the rotor gets hot, it can cause the car to shake and vibrate because it's warping. I'm guessing (if that's true) it could be intermittent depending how much the brake is sticking. Does that sound reasonable? It could be 2 different problems but I'm hoping it's all due to the brake. Maybe it just picks up the vibration at certain speeds.
Obviously brake problem needs to be fixed which I'd assume is simply the caliper is hanging up so either caliper isn't sliding in its carriage or piston(s) is/are not working freely.
I'm not intending to be a 'hero' and try to fix this. I have my own vehicles. She gets all stressed about it and says they don't listen to a woman at the Jiffy Lube where she goes, the car is falling apart, they'll try to rip her off, etc. So I said, I'll take it, and I'll tell them it appears the brake is hanging up, it's getting hot, there's a terrible (intermittent) bad vibration, so I'm saying change the pads both sides and make sure brakes are working properly and not heating up. (Then hopefully the vibration goes away).
My take on it is keep the vehicle working because except for a few not horrible scratches the car is good. Will need tires sometime, but rides nice, leather, all goodies, cavernous inside. Has the 4-cam VVT engine which isn't real peppy but it goes.
Looks like oil -may- be leaking onto the exhaust manifold, looks wet there, but not lots of smoking, so probably something to keep an eye on - but I'd say even if some repairs were needed, it seems basically good even at the miles.
Meanwhile her '09 Rabbit backup vehicle, according to last inspection, has a bad CV, so you can't take that anywhere because when a CV lets go, in my experience on this with Saabs, you are dead in the water. Irrelevant to the post except I had to bring Rangers into it somehow so I told her, gee that sucks, and here I have two 25 year old vehicles working perfectly.

Would appreciate any help and comments about the RX300... am I on track or am I missing something?

 

[CrabGuy]

I have an 07 Highlander (gave it to my son) that does the same thing on the LF. There's no real discernable pattern to the issue but it does take a few miles for it to happen. It never did this before until I had new rotors and ceramic pads installed at 85K. I was told that if the shop over greased the sliding pins it can cause the caliper to bind when it gets hot and they wont release fully. The vehicle is not where I can check it out to verify this. The RX 300 is just a Highlander with more lipstick.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Rotors dont unwarp when they cool. Once they are warped they are warped.

My guess is yes the rotors warped, and the brake is sticking enough to feel it, but then it fully releases and it goes away.

Warped rotors only present themselves when the brakes are on.

 

[James Morse]

thanks this is useful info, both
I'm tempted to put the thing up on stands and take a good look at it. but that's time, and, I have no lift, it's a pain, and what if I screw something up, and, she has money for repairs.
really interesting you have seen this and as you say no pattern and it was after the rebuild of them.

rusty, you're saying rotor is already permanently warped. if so then if I put the car up and spin the wheel (if I can) I should see the rotors surface have variable clearance to some benchmark comparison point.
good info because I was asking myself, if steel warps from heat, doesn't it just stay warped?

rotors look like under $100 so.... if it was a Ranger I'd swap in new rotor/pads and make sure caliper is freed up and then road test.
pads maybe $50 less/more depending if I go oem (probably not...)
wondering if pistons in caliper stick, caliper $50 to $150 approx.

at least this gives me info to talk to shops about it. they will probably say they can't tell what it needs besides pads/rotors until it's apart.
sounds like parts could run maybe $100 minimum to $300 max. And labor will kill you. So just to do some pre-planning.... if a decent shop said they'd fix it for $150 and stand behind it, that'd be a good deal.

I'm not sure how I would test for sticky caliper vs sticky pins/caliper carriage (where it slides to center itself... I think). Obviously if new rotor is in there but problem isn't fixed I'd just get another bad rotor out of it, but seems like a quick test drive would tell you, it's either heating up real hot, or it's not.

bad news about the warped rotor, but, thanks... forwarned is forearmed.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

I dont know if youd visiably see the warpage. Probably not.

What i would do is let it sit overnight so you know the brake is released fully, then take it for a drive late at night with no traffic, and do not touch the brakes unless its an emergency. See if it does it if you drive it a ways without hitting the brakes.

Id replace rotor, caliper and hose. Hoses can cause sticking too.

 

[RobbieD]

Drive it, then put your hand on each front wheel to feel their temperature. If one side is dragging, it'll be noticeably warmer. Be careful- one really dragging can burn your hand, but you'll usually smell it first.

 

[James Morse]

ok Rusty will do test drive. wonder how do I know if brake is fully released just cuz it sat but ok will follow instructions.

Robbie yeah I was saying on o.p. that driver side after short drive was so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it. passenger side, not hot at all. it was actually the very first thing I checked because when they are hot like that you know right off something ain't right, especially when it's just the one side and nobody was riding the brakes.

it reminds me when I used to drive Evans Notch it has miles of steep downhill and one time rotors were smoking hot (didn't warp though.... Saab).
don't even know why because seems like I could have used trans (manual) as brake.... which I'd do now... it was decades ago.

why can hose cause sticking, because it's full of debris and fluid doesn't go back to the reservoir?

good call... if that stuff was replaced, I'd have to think the problem would disappear.

thanks

 

[RobbieD]

Sorry, missed that in your first post.

why can hose cause sticking, because it's full of debris and fluid doesn't go back to the reservoir?

The hose liner inside wall deteriorates, and a separated piece can act like a check valve. Fluid pressure from the master cylinder gets passed it, but won't bleed back the other way when the master pressure goes away,

 

[rusty ol ranger]

ok Rusty will do test drive. wonder how do I know if brake is fully released just cuz it sat but ok will follow instructions.

Robbie yeah I was saying on o.p. that driver side after short drive was so hot you couldn't hold your hand on it. passenger side, not hot at all. it was actually the very first thing I checked because when they are hot like that you know right off something ain't right, especially when it's just the one side and nobody was riding the brakes.

it reminds me when I used to drive Evans Notch it has miles of steep downhill and one time rotors were smoking hot (didn't warp though.... Saab).
don't even know why because seems like I could have used trans (manual) as brake.... which I'd do now... it was decades ago.

why can hose cause sticking, because it's full of debris and fluid doesn't go back to the reservoir?

good call... if that stuff was replaced, I'd have to think the problem would disappear.

thanks

I thought you said that it was fine whrn you first take off thats why i assumed they would free up overnight.

 

[Josh B]

I actually expect too much caliper grease to be the least of your concern, but rather the opposite

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

I dont know if youd visiably see the warpage. Probably not.

What i would do is let it sit overnight so you know the brake is released fully, then take it for a drive late at night with no traffic, and do not touch the brakes unless its an emergency. See if it does it if you drive it a ways without hitting the brakes.

Id replace rotor, caliper and hose. Hoses can cause sticking too.

I’ve seen the hose be the culprit before, look perfect outside but lock up a caliper. But the heat of it sticking can fry the caliper, so once it sticks bad enough to warp a rotor, you’re better off doing the full deal on both sides. Hoses, calipers, pads and rotors and hope you didn’t heat soak the front wheel bearings.

 

[James Morse]

yes. thanks everyone. bearings - I would expect 'them' to check that, but I'll mention it to them to make sure and check it. that'd be what you call collateral damage.
Car isn't being driven now I told her don't drive it, not safe, and will only get worse.
I am afraid at a shop to replace both sides rotors, pads, calipers, and hose, they are going to give me a huge number.
Thing is, I looked up parts on RockAuto and if I were doing this myself it looks like maybe $200 for all the parts. I mean, depending, because there's a wide price range for some things, but let's say not the cheapest and not the most expensive either. I don't think I'd go ceramic pads, semi-metallic seems fine. But I'm not planning to do it myself. With a lift I probably would. "A man has to know his limitations."
I'm afraid what they would charge for labor. To me it seems straightforward, you're not fixing, you're replacing. Don't give a darn what's the condition of the old stuff, just take and trash it. It's r/r.
Plus it depends if they say sure bring parts, that's one thing, if they say no we have to make money on parts, that's different.
Lexus dealer would probably charge a grand easy.
Yes when you start out driving, no problem at least the one time I drove it. Did not do the other test yet, my bad.
I'm going to a shop to talk to them first then of course they will say we have to see it but I thought I'd start there. I told other half it could be $500 (that'd probably be a decent price) or more and she says that barely pays a rental for a week so no-brainer, do it. She's like, then something else will break and I'm like, well, over a quarter million miles, yup, probably something will. On the other hand since her purchase price was zero, if it was me, I'd keep it going until something really major goes. Will update when I know more.

 

[James Morse]

Yikes. look at these parts prices. Hose $75? RockAuto says $7. Etc. It's over $800 in parts and I was thinking at RockAuto maybe more like $200.
Labor is $250 which isn't too horrible but not cheap; if they would do it for just labor and I get parts that would be acceptable but they won't.
Looks like back to square one.
Edmunds says the car is worth like 1500.
I think that's the hit on miles. And that's assuming brakes were fixed (did not include brake problem in the appraisal). So your net if you have Firestone fix is then sell it is $500.
Something's not right or am I just running up against, this is old.
I can (1) tell her, that's the cost, do it (I have a hard time doing this because as I see it that's a total ripoff on parts) or (2) find a shop that'll take parts I supply or (3) tell her sell as-is to somebody who doesn't mind fixing it. Option of me doing it, I just don't see it, I have other projects, so let's say I got all the parts and did fix it and saved her $800. Would I "charge her" for labor? Highly unlikely. So there's nothing in it for me and potential downside I run into a problem with the thing half done (not sure what that would be, but seems like "simple" repairs often have a glitch in there somewhere). Yes it would be a nice thing for me to do it and if I were 30 probably I would but when you get older time gets more valuable.
Argh. So I need to find a guy I trust to do it, and how does that happen, I don't know. And then you have no warranty or anything on the work I imagine.
I could put an ad in C-list. Not sure where to go from here.

 

[RobbieD]

At least (it looks like) you didn't get charged for an "inspection" and the quote.

"MAY ALSO NEED HUB ASSY" means that you'll probably "need" one once they have it all apart.

Argh. So I need to find a guy I trust to do it, and how does that happen, I don't know.

Unless you bite the bullet and do it yourself, finding a competent mechanic to do it the side may be worth looking into. Ask around at the parts stores you use, or run an ad. A retired Toyota/Lexus mechanic would be the absolute ideal.

 

[Roert42]

The parts price doesn't seem crazy. Don't compare it RA and think you are getting ripped off. They got to buy the parts from a local parts house who has them in stock, not waiting three days for shipping.

Most shops mark up parts to help take care of some of the overhead. Pay the guy to answer the phone, call the parts house, make the quote, ect.

An independent shop is much more likely to take your parts, and do the install. Biggest thing, if there is a problem, and you buy the parts from them they will eat the labor on a comeback. If you bring the parts, you got to deal with the warranty on your own and pay for the labor to do twice.

Not that there should be anything that needs warranty on a brake job.



Even if you pay $1200 for brakes, spread out over 4/5 years until the next brake job, That's $20/25 a month. Hell of a lot cheaper then any car payment. It's seems laughable to consider scraping a car just because it needs a brake job.


Now if there was enough other issues to the point I was only going to drive it another few months until the inspection ran out, that's another story.