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NEW 4WDs VS OLD 4WDs - Ronny Dahl


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What do you think? Do you agree?

 


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IMO, newer models are taking away the enjoyment of off-roading.

The old systems of 2HI, 4HI, and 4LO was a lot of driver finesse and tire placement. The new vehicles are now just tire placement. The vehicle's computer regulates the tire speed with the terrain chosen.

There's more luxury now in the newer vehicles so you really can't say that a person is roughing it when you have outlets to power coolers, TVs, coffee makers, etc. lol
 

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Its kinda complicated at least in regards to his offroad mode thing.


In our Bronco:

eco get worse mpg than normal hwy.

Sport is IMO at its core basically the ziptie mod. 10% of throttle becomes 15%, if you hold the throttle as you activate it you can feel the car accelerate. Something like that will really effect perception on its own. Also plays with the shift strategy to run out every gear longer and hang in a gear so RPMs are on hand if you want to punch it which help too.

Mud/ruts: Engages the rear locker and supposedly plays with traction control. IMO it can only do so much with the TC with the rear locker engaged. Aside from being able to toggle the locker on and off on the fly it is kind of underwhelming. Have to manually shift the trans which is kinda hokey.

Slippery: not bad, activates automatic 4wd on ours and plays with the throttle, abs and tc. Great one stop shop for a novice in winter.

Rock Crawl: legit. Tightens the throttle and torce converter (massive improvement) , have to do the hokey pokey shift to 4lo and locker is mandatory engaged. If you want to turn off the locker like to turn sharp in close quarters you have to leave the mode. Which kicks you into high which is another hokey pokey range shift so you can do it all over again to get back into plain ol' low range. Supposed to tighten the steering but never noticed so either it didn't do much or it's so instinctive it just clicks. Also have to manually shift the transmission.

Trail Turn Assist: On grass or farm field residue the locked tire will easily slide and then it just kinda drags itself along like wounded duck. If you have too much traction it is kind of the same thing, the non locked wheels struggle to get enough bite to drag the locked wheel. When it works it works but when you need it it would be nice to know exactly what it is going to do

This is what I have learned so far, I am still learning. No way is this stuff turn key for a novice to just jump and run with an experienced driver. It has taken two trail rides and numerous experiments in my field to get where I am.

I might sound like a wimp fussin' over having to manually shift the trans. My '85 is a manual, so are all five of my tractors. They don't shift with a up/down rocker switch like your tv remote volume, it just isn't super user friendly for me.

I forget what the terminology is but the offroad cruise is kinda sorta neat, will run the brakes for you so you don't go too fast.

But it isn't lost on me that what this tech is doing to really improve things... makes it more like an older simpler rig. Tightening up the TC makes the driveline firmer like a manual trans. Offroad cruise thing with the brakes holding you back, engine braking with a manual.

Its hard to be subjective here too. It has changed a lot but I have driven my '85 for decades longer. I know what it is going to do every time. I ring the engine room for ahead one third, they ring back with "aye aye caption ahead one third" I tell the helm to come to course 272 and the helm responds "aye aye coming to course 272" Nobody screws with anything, it does what I tell it to. The throttle is always the same, the steering is always the same, the brakes are always the same thing shifts when I want to to shift. I kinda like that. I can pop from high range to low range in seconds. 2lo or even front low is even on the table for super tight turning.

And for modern 4wd's in general. Most are one failed wheel speed sensor away from being a 2wd. Trail Recon had that happen with his 4xe and we have had more than a couple come thru our dealership with the same. FWD like wheel offsets chasing better mpg are more prone to damage and filling with dirt/mud when offroad. Modern fluids are very expensive to change after dunking in water also.

And this can vary in importance a lot depending on your train of thought too. But like on my '85 I can service the wheelbearings before/after a trip. It is possible to actually know what the grease is like in there. The Bronco... you don't know until it starts making noise. And it is one of the super modern unit bearings that has to be pressed out of the knuckle... good luck doing that in the Autozone parking lot 500 miles from home. Same with u-joints, mine have been replaced so I can regrease them. Most newer vehicles (I know the Ranger is like this) you can not grease/replace the u-joints, you have to replace the driveshaft. My wife's old Edge was like that but with carrier bearings, the stupid thing had like 3 carrier bearings in the rear driveshaft and when the went you had to replace the driveshaft.

It just kinda goes on and on...
 
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Its kinda complicated at least in regards to his offroad mode thing.


In our Bronco:

eco get worse mpg than normal hwy.

Sport is IMO at its core basically the ziptie mod. 10% of throttle becomes 15%, if you hold the throttle as you activate it you can feel the car accelerate. Something like that will really effect perception on its own. Also plays with the shift strategy to run out every gear longer and hang in a gear so RPMs are on hand if you want to punch it which help too.

Mud/ruts: Engages the rear locker and supposedly plays with traction control. IMO it can only do so much with the TC with the rear locker engaged. Aside from being able to toggle the locker on and off on the fly it is kind of underwhelming. Have to manually shift the trans which is kinda hokey.

Trail Turn Assist: On grass or farm field residue the locked tire will easily slide and then it just kinda drags itself along like wounded duck. If you have too much traction it is kind of the same thing, the non locked wheels struggle to get enough bite to drag the locked wheel. When it works it works but when you need it it would be nice to know exactly what it is going to do

This is what I have learned so far, I am still learning. No way is this stuff turn key for a novice to just jump and run with an experienced driver. It has taken two trail rides and numerous experiments in my field to get where I am.

I might sound like a wimp fussin' over having to manually shift the trans. My '85 is a manual, so are all five of my tractors. They don't shift with a up/down rocker switch like your tv remote volume, it just isn't super user friendly for me.

I forget what the terminology is but the offroad cruise is kinda sorta neat, will run the brakes for you so you don't go too fast.

But it isn't lost on me that what this tech is doing to really improve things... makes it more like an older simpler rig. Tightening up the TC makes the driveline firmer like a manual trans. Offroad cruise thing with the brakes holding you back, engine braking with a manual.

Its hard to be subjective here too. It has changed a lot but I have driven my '85 for decades longer. I know what it is going to do every time. I ring the engine room for ahead one third, they ring back with "aye aye caption ahead one third" I tell the helm to come to course 272 and the helm responds "aye aye coming to course 272" Nobody screws with anything, it does what I tell it to. The throttle is always the same, the steering is always the same, the brakes are always the same thing shifts when I want to to shift. I kinda like that. I can pop from high range to low range in seconds. 2lo or even front low is even on the table for super tight turning.

And for modern 4wd's in general. Most are one failed wheel speed sensor away from being a 2wd. Trail Recon had that happen with his 4xe and we have had more than a couple come thru our dealership with the same. FWD like wheel offsets chasing better mpg are more prone to damage and filling with dirt/mud when offroad. Modern fluids are very expensive to change after dunking in water also.

And this can vary in importance a lot depending on your train of thought too. But like on my '85 I can service the wheelbearings before/after a trip. It is possible to actually know what the grease is like in there. The Bronco... you don't know until it starts making noise. And it is one of the super modern unit bearings that has to be pressed out of the knuckle... good luck doing that in the Autozone parking lot 500 miles from home. Same with u-joints, mine have been replaced so I can regrease them. Most newer vehicles (I know the Ranger is like this) you can not grease/replace the u-joints, you have to replace the driveshaft. My wife's old Edge was like that but with carrier bearings, the stupid thing had like 3 carrier bearings in the rear driveshaft and when the went you had to replace the driveshaft.

It just kinda goes on and on...
Nice evaluation.
 

rusty ol ranger

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I actually agree with this guy pretty much spot on.

My jeep has all that fancy shit, besides lane assist, and luckly i can shut it all off. I had snow get on the sensor once and couldnt back up cause it thought i was gonna hit something and kept applying the brakes.

But that being said it kinda seems like a moot point because anyone whos planning on doing "hardcore" off roading isnt going to go buy something new. Their gonna go buy something old.

I love my jeep, way more then i thought, but being realistic about its capabilites go a long ways too. Will it wheel? Yes im sure it would...is it going to wheel like a 78 CJ? Absolutly not...but then again i wouldnt expect it too. But itll handle any trail that im willing to put it through...i hope.

If i was building a vehicle for way out wheeling like this guy was describing it would be a late 70s to mid 80s F series/Bronco with Carburated 300, 4speed manual, lockers on botb ends, a mild lift and sane tires.

Why? Because its dead simple, dead reliable, and easy to rig back togther with whatever you can find laying around.

Just my take.
 

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Its kinda complicated at least in regards to his offroad mode thing.


In our Bronco:

eco get worse mpg than normal hwy.

Sport is IMO at its core basically the ziptie mod. 10% of throttle becomes 15%, if you hold the throttle as you activate it you can feel the car accelerate. Something like that will really effect perception on its own. Also plays with the shift strategy to run out every gear longer and hang in a gear so RPMs are on hand if you want to punch it which help too.

Mud/ruts: Engages the rear locker and supposedly plays with traction control. IMO it can only do so much with the TC with the rear locker engaged. Aside from being able to toggle the locker on and off on the fly it is kind of underwhelming. Have to manually shift the trans which is kinda hokey.

Slippery: not bad, activates automatic 4wd on ours and plays with the throttle, abs and tc. Great one stop shop for a novice in winter.

Rock Crawl: legit. Tightens the throttle and torce converter (massive improvement) , have to do the hokey pokey shift to 4lo and locker is mandatory engaged. If you want to turn off the locker like to turn sharp in close quarters you have to leave the mode. Which kicks you into high which is another hokey pokey range shift so you can do it all over again to get back into plain ol' low range. Supposed to tighten the steering but never noticed so either it didn't do much or it's so instinctive it just clicks. Also have to manually shift the transmission.

Trail Turn Assist: On grass or farm field residue the locked tire will easily slide and then it just kinda drags itself along like wounded duck. If you have too much traction it is kind of the same thing, the non locked wheels struggle to get enough bite to drag the locked wheel. When it works it works but when you need it it would be nice to know exactly what it is going to do

This is what I have learned so far, I am still learning. No way is this stuff turn key for a novice to just jump and run with an experienced driver. It has taken two trail rides and numerous experiments in my field to get where I am.

I might sound like a wimp fussin' over having to manually shift the trans. My '85 is a manual, so are all five of my tractors. They don't shift with a up/down rocker switch like your tv remote volume, it just isn't super user friendly for me.

I forget what the terminology is but the offroad cruise is kinda sorta neat, will run the brakes for you so you don't go too fast.

But it isn't lost on me that what this tech is doing to really improve things... makes it more like an older simpler rig. Tightening up the TC makes the driveline firmer like a manual trans. Offroad cruise thing with the brakes holding you back, engine braking with a manual.

Its hard to be subjective here too. It has changed a lot but I have driven my '85 for decades longer. I know what it is going to do every time. I ring the engine room for ahead one third, they ring back with "aye aye caption ahead one third" I tell the helm to come to course 272 and the helm responds "aye aye coming to course 272" Nobody screws with anything, it does what I tell it to. The throttle is always the same, the steering is always the same, the brakes are always the same thing shifts when I want to to shift. I kinda like that. I can pop from high range to low range in seconds. 2lo or even front low is even on the table for super tight turning.

And for modern 4wd's in general. Most are one failed wheel speed sensor away from being a 2wd. Trail Recon had that happen with his 4xe and we have had more than a couple come thru our dealership with the same. FWD like wheel offsets chasing better mpg are more prone to damage and filling with dirt/mud when offroad. Modern fluids are very expensive to change after dunking in water also.

And this can vary in importance a lot depending on your train of thought too. But like on my '85 I can service the wheelbearings before/after a trip. It is possible to actually know what the grease is like in there. The Bronco... you don't know until it starts making noise. And it is one of the super modern unit bearings that has to be pressed out of the knuckle... good luck doing that in the Autozone parking lot 500 miles from home. Same with u-joints, mine have been replaced so I can regrease them. Most newer vehicles (I know the Ranger is like this) you can not grease/replace the u-joints, you have to replace the driveshaft. My wife's old Edge was like that but with carrier bearings, the stupid thing had like 3 carrier bearings in the rear driveshaft and when the went you had to replace the driveshaft.

It just kinda goes on and on...


🤔 Mixed thoughts on that.
 

bobbywalter

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I actually agree with this guy pretty much spot on.

My jeep has all that fancy shit, besides lane assist, and luckly i can shut it all off. I had snow get on the sensor once and couldnt back up cause it thought i was gonna hit something and kept applying the brakes.

But that being said it kinda seems like a moot point because anyone whos planning on doing "hardcore" off roading isnt going to go buy something new. Their gonna go buy something old.

I love my jeep, way more then i thought, but being realistic about its capabilites go a long ways too. Will it wheel? Yes im sure it would...is it going to wheel like a 78 CJ? Absolutly not...but then again i wouldnt expect it too. But itll handle any trail that im willing to put it through...i hope.

If i was building a vehicle for way out wheeling like this guy was describing it would be a late 70s to mid 80s F series/Bronco with Carburated 300, 4speed manual, lockers on botb ends, a mild lift and sane tires.

Why? Because its dead simple, dead reliable, and easy to rig back togther with whatever you can find laying around.

Just my take.

I can tell you. In a group of 17 trucks I went with on one particular run through some crazy shit. 14 were brand new....some just a few days old out in Moab. The lead and tail gunner were old rigs and of course my junk. We took several bypasses. It was mostly jeep wranglers and jeep pickups but the land rovers and a Mercedes did everything....

That's fun to watch.


Incidentally....


My truck is a mechanical diesel with a default able 4l80, r/2/3 with 79 one tons on leafs. Probably splurge if I don't buy a new truck and get a secondary mechanical starter too....and the humvee mechanical crank pump drive for hydro steering and cooling.


Because captain cave pig....might be slow and dumb ... But gets it done. Reliably.


More importantly...it runs on an array of fuel sources. At any angle.
 

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An older 4x4 with lockers or good limited slips almost always outperforms the newer ones with all the computer garbage on them.
 

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I can tell you. In a group of 17 trucks I went with on one particular run through some crazy shit. 14 were brand new....some just a few days old out in Moab. The lead and tail gunner were old rigs and of course my junk. We took several bypasses. It was mostly jeep wranglers and jeep pickups but the land rovers and a Mercedes did everything....

That's fun to watch.


Incidentally....


My truck is a mechanical diesel with a default able 4l80, r/2/3 with 79 one tons on leafs. Probably splurge if I don't buy a new truck and get a secondary mechanical starter too....and the humvee mechanical crank pump drive for hydro steering and cooling.


Because captain cave pig....might be slow and dumb ... But gets it done. Reliably.


More importantly...it runs on an array of fuel sources. At any angle.
I'd love to do an old school diesel truck one day. Maybe a Detroit 353 or 453 with turbo. Those things are just so heavy, though.

And a Jake brake for fun.

I just watched a video of a guy bringing a 671 back to life after it had sat a few years. Previously had been a fire pump prime mover in a steel mill. Low hours. Diesel Creek is a fun YouTube channel.
 

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An older 4x4 with lockers or good limited slips almost always outperforms the newer ones with all the computer garbage on them.

I have not seen that. Especially in sand.
 

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I actually agree with this guy pretty much spot on.

My jeep has all that fancy shit, besides lane assist, and luckly i can shut it all off. I had snow get on the sensor once and couldnt back up cause it thought i was gonna hit something and kept applying the brakes.

But that being said it kinda seems like a moot point because anyone whos planning on doing "hardcore" off roading isnt going to go buy something new. Their gonna go buy something old.

I love my jeep, way more then i thought, but being realistic about its capabilites go a long ways too. Will it wheel? Yes im sure it would...is it going to wheel like a 78 CJ? Absolutly not...but then again i wouldnt expect it too. But itll handle any trail that im willing to put it through...i hope.

If i was building a vehicle for way out wheeling like this guy was describing it would be a late 70s to mid 80s F series/Bronco with Carburated 300, 4speed manual, lockers on botb ends, a mild lift and sane tires.

Why? Because its dead simple, dead reliable, and easy to rig back togther with whatever you can find laying around.

Just my take.
I can tell you. In a group of 17 trucks I went with on one particular run through some crazy shit. 14 were brand new....some just a few days old out in Moab. The lead and tail gunner were old rigs and of course my junk. We took several bypasses. It was mostly jeep wranglers and jeep pickups but the land rovers and a Mercedes did everything....

That's fun to watch.


Incidentally....


My truck is a mechanical diesel with a default able 4l80, r/2/3 with 79 one tons on leafs. Probably splurge if I don't buy a new truck and get a secondary mechanical starter too....and the humvee mechanical crank pump drive for hydro steering and cooling.


Because captain cave pig....might be slow and dumb ... But gets it done. Reliably.


More importantly...it runs on an array of fuel sources. At any angle.
So what youre saying is im possibly under estimating my mom-mobile?
 

bobbywalter

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So what youre saying is im possibly under estimating my mom-mobile?

I... Would say the 96 to 01 or whenever they changed them...Cherokee as the best balanced rig you can get....until the later jk 4door. The 4.0 was just right.

The toureg is a beast off road as well.

The later independent cherocars still do really good. Even the commanders.

Though. A full size bronco would be preferred.

But the Toyotas.....
 

rusty ol ranger

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I... Would say the 96 to 01 or whenever they changed them...Cherokee as the best balanced rig you can get....until the later jk 4door. The 4.0 was just right.

The toureg is a beast off road as well.

The later independent cherocars still do really good. Even the commanders.

Though. A full size bronco would be preferred.

But the Toyotas.....
Yeah the 99-04's are the most sought after GC's for offroad rigs from what ive read on the jeep forums.

From what they said over there when i asked they said mine (2017) should be more capable then my expeditions were....but thats on a jeep forum...and i dont know if i really buy that.

Either way, its a good all arounder.

That being said i remember being at the ORV park one day and this guy had a land rover discovery (or range rover, cant remember) out there, IIRC it was mid-late 00's model...i never gave much attention to them but this thing bone stock was very impressive. He climbed shit i wouldnt try with my 89 F250 i was out there with.

But full disclosure ive never really been much for climbing.
 

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Yeah the 99-04's are the most sought after GC's for offroad rigs from what ive read on the jeep forums.

From what they said over there when i asked they said mine (2017) should be more capable then my expeditions were....but thats on a jeep forum...and i dont know if i really buy that.

Either way, its a good all arounder.

That being said i remember being at the ORV park one day and this guy had a land rover discovery (or range rover, cant remember) out there, IIRC it was mid-late 00's model...i never gave much attention to them but this thing bone stock was very impressive. He climbed shit i wouldnt try with my 89 F250 i was out there with.

But full disclosure ive never really been much for climbing.
I learned my lesson when I lived overseas.... n e v e r underestimate Rover.
 

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