am i missing some seals? water gets in bearings too easy.

[rickcdewitt]

Has anyone ever thought to simply try putting the D44 seals onto the D35 shaft if they're so much better??? They are... after all, the same exact thing. (The D35 even had the same seals up until '93 or so).

if you listen to allen d the post 93 seals are better.i don't know if you've noticed junkie but the pass side spindle bearing seems to get contaminated first.my theory is that the push pull action of the slip as suspension cycles lets more get in.i haven't noticed this on the solid d44's i've had apart.even if the shaft and roller bearing are the same size in the spindle i'de rather have the stronger simpler solid axle with better clearance,larger wheel bearings,brakes etc.

 

[compleckz]

Has anyone ever thought to simply try putting the D44 seals onto the D35 shaft if they're so much better??? They are... after all, the same exact thing. (The D35 even had the same seals up until '93 or so).

are the other two seals the same? the wheel bearing seal, and spindle seal? im pretty sure my axle shaft seal is the tightest seal on my d35, the water gets in the wheel bearing seal the easiest.

why is it i don't hear d44 people complaining about this ever?

 

[compleckz]

pass side spindle bearing seems to get contaminated first.my theory is that the push pull action of the slip as suspension cycles lets more get in.

i'd rather have the stronger simpler solid axle with better clearance,larger wheel bearings,brakes etc.

thats EXACTLY what happened to me this time, pass spindle bearing swamped, drivers mint.. but i have a c-clip elim spring pushing the axle into the spindle, so it doesn't make sense for me.

i think saying d44's in general are 'stronger' is debatable, and im sure it will be debated.... again... hehe

 

[compleckz]

are the other two seals the same? the wheel bearing seal, and spindle seal?

just looked up a 76 f150 d44, wheel bearing seal is timken 4250, same as i just got, outer wheel bearing is timken set37, same as inner/outer on my 35.. but the inner is set45 on the d44..

the axle shaft seal is this one for the d44

d35

the spindle bearing for the d44 are smaller/different. heres the seals
d44:

d35

so why don't the d44 guys constantly complain about water? i dont know ANYTHING about d60s, but how different can the seal setups really be?

 

[rickcdewitt]

those must be pics of the later style stub seals for the 35.theres a smaller seal that goes inside the seal in the second d44 picture that you slide onto the stub shaft with a plastic thrust washer.and the first d44 picture looks like it might be the seal in the axle tube not the knuckle.not sure on that though.

 

[rickcdewitt]

thats EXACTLY what happened to me this time, pass spindle bearing swamped, drivers mint.. but i have a c-clip elim spring pushing the axle into the spindle, so it doesn't make sense for me.

i think saying d44's in general are 'stronger' is debatable, and im sure it will be debated.... again... hehe

yeah,i wonder if the stub gets more side load on that side?

as far as being stronger it depends on what part of the axle you are talking about and as a whole,etc.someone else can debate it till they are blue in the face, LOL.i stand by my generalization.i've seen the 44 do some amazing stuff in half tons with crazy rednecks behind the wheel.

 

[Totalled]

Damn. I'm getting timken seals next time..

 

[4x4junkie]

if you listen to allen d the post 93 seals are better.i don't know if you've noticed junkie but the pass side spindle bearing seems to get contaminated first.my theory is that the push pull action of the slip as suspension cycles lets more get in.i haven't noticed this on the solid d44's i've had apart.even if the shaft and roller bearing are the same size in the spindle i'de rather have the stronger simpler solid axle with better clearance,larger wheel bearings,brakes etc.

The one time I did have water intrusion on my D35, it was more so on the driverside, so no, I haven't experienced that.

For reasons unknown, my '94 D35 has the D44-type seals (spindle seals have the angled lip like compleckz's 3rd pic down, and uses the hard plastic spacer and small V-groove seal around the shaft. IIRC, there was no seal actually INSIDE the spindle).
My buddy's '93 Ranger had seals like compleckz's 2nd pic, and had the seal pressed inside the spindle (they were all tore up & disintegrated pretty bad, too, where mine are still 100% perfect).
Shafts I've picked up at junkyards:
'91 & '92 Explorer shafts: same seals as mine (D44-type)
'96 Ranger: D35 seals like my buddy's.

The D44 on my Ranger ('92 Bronco axle) has the exact same seals as my D35 (and I've had water get into it once also). I've dealt with these same seals on a '79 D44, so it's nothing to do with TTB either.

As for others not complaining about D44s and water (D60s too), perhaps you're just not noticing, but they're all over the place on Pirate4x4, and I'd bet $$$ on F-150 forums too, which I don't frequent (there was a big long thread once where Piney (Eric The Red) had also complained quite loudly about this (on the old forum), and he has a D44). The same answers are always given there too: "you'll have to just deal with it if you like to play in deep water".
I think the attitude often perpetuated here has simply become that the D35 is inferior and the D44 is somehow better, and people either are choosing to remain ignorant about it, or they just aren't paying enough attention (I've brought this up numerous times in the past, too). There is no difference in these seals (at least in their mounting dimensions and the fact you can interchange them).

I also don't argue that the pushing/pulling on the axle from the slip-yoke can't affect things, although if that were the case, I'd be looking at a possible issue with the splined washer and c-clip at the end of the spindle allowing too much movement of the shaft back & forth inside the spindle (allowing a gap to form at the lip of the rear seal).


The problem is very simply the fact the hub cavity is NOT VENTED!!. When you submerge hot hubs (heat from brakes) into cold water, the vacuum caused by the sudden cooling draws the water in right past any seals. If a vent could be rigged up and the line ran up high, this problem of water intrusion would almost be guaranteed to disappear.


D35 shaft with D44 seals?

 

[Sasquatch_Ryda]

My 91 has that seal Junkie

 

[compleckz]

hey well sorry to get u all riled up junkie, lol

but thanks for setting me straight on the seal issue, i REALLY think a huge part of my problem was the CRAP wheel bearing seals i had been using..

i know someone local who has an eb d44 in his ranger, and says he has no water issues like he used to in his d35, so thats what i was basing my info off of.. and until recently, i wasnt even interested in a sas into my truck, which would explain why i never saw water complaints.

the d35 works pretty good for me, i dont run into much deep mud where the beam plows and gets me stuck.. i mostly do rocks/ledges/dirt washes, but to get to it i end up in deep, but hard bottom water areas, and the occasional muddy section up to the hubs, thats about it for mud... i haven't really needed more flex, its got about 12-14" travel up front.. but the front dosent flex all that great unless my rear is flexed to the limit too.

i need to be able to drive it to the trail, so if i ever did put a bigger axle up front, a d60 would have to be narrowed for legality reasons in my state.. but i don't have the skills to do that.. if i ever did go d44 up front, it would have to be at least as strong as the d35 to make me do it. i still may pick up an eb or waggy d44 to start building on the cheap/long term, i need to start researching all that though..

 

[4x4junkie]

My 91 has that seal Junkie

It would seem correct in that '93 was the switchover year, although I still don't know why mine has the "old" seals.
I did have some warranty work done on the frontend involving a balljoint and then the wheelbearings (they probably tightened them improperly afterward), maybe they changed them then? I can't say. I don't think the '93-'97 seals are better though.

hey well sorry to get u all riled up junkie, lol

Sorry, it wasn't you, it was the generalizations some were making about the D35 in an attempt to justify a SAS after it's been pointed out many times that the particulars in question here are the same on both axles and that such a swap is not likely to solve any issues for them (if it does, it's because new D44 parts replaced worn or damaged D35 parts).

I do admit though, it does irk me to no end to see misinformation being spread about the forums, and is probably why I sometimes get a bit long-winded on it Its not my $$$ they're blowing though, so I'll go ahead and step aside on it for now.

Maybe the next time I have one of my frontends apart (my Ranger is probably due for a repack after 4 years), I'll give things a lookover and see if anything can be done about designing up a vent for the hubs.

 

[compleckz]

I do admit though, it does irk me to no end to see misinformation being spread about the forums, and is probably why I sometimes get a bit long-winded on it

i really appreciate getting the correct information, and long winded = more detail, which is welcome.

it would be nice to have a sticky, or a write-up, maybe for the next magazine, on D35 ttb vs. D44 solid.. a nice straight up table with a comparison, strengths and weaknesses, unbiased straight up facts only. listing the mods possible to increase strength. would be good to clear up all this BS thrown around.

would an eb D44 with shafts that accept 760x's be equal strength to the D35? or does the neck down before the splines make them less strong? supposedly they say cryo shafts on the d44 with no neck down, 760xs-- is "same strength as a stock 1979 D60 front axle"..

im just curious if its ever worth it to go d44, or if narrowing a d60 is much more cost effective. im on set 3 of d35 shafts, i need to buy a superrunner kit.. for the price of that i could get a eb d44 and do a junkyard disc swap.. i know i have to factor in a million other things, and its cheaper to stick with my d35 now that its pretty well built.. but im just considering all my options here.

 

[4x4junkie]

An EB D44 with non-chromo shafts and 760X joints would probably be very close equal in strength to the D35 going forward, but probably would prove out to be stronger in reverse (this due to the lo-pinion gear setup on the EB axle). The D44's bigger brakes obviously would have a heat dissipation advantage as well, although stopping power itself won't be any better without also swapping the master cyl. Finally you'd get wheelbearings that are spaced wider apart than on the D35, which a few people seem to have trouble with.

A chromoed and blinged out D44 probably could match a STOCK D60 for strength, but only because of the 30 spline stub shafts on the 60. If you were to swap the 60 stubs for 35 spline ones though, there would no longer be any hope for a D44 with any amount of $$$ thrown at it to match it (and FWIW, a bone-stock '05up Ford D60 already has factory 35 spline stubs, so other than narrowing it, you'd have no need to modify it in any way to keep ahead of the blingin' D44s).



As for a writeup, I've already done a few about it (there's one stickied at the top of the Xtreme Fab section), although it seems most don't ever read stickies. I do need to get off my butt and submit a few more articles for the TRS Mag maybe, I'm not sure how much more stock axle tech Jim wants though (I've kindof gotten the impression he thinks there's too much on it already, yet when stuff like this continues on, it says just the opposite, there's not enough, and the true facts keep getting lost within all of the BS.
The TTB D35 and D44 SA do get compared here & there in bits & pieces on various pages in the Tech Library, but I agree having everything all in one place may be a good idea. I'll throw a mag article together on it and see what happens.

 

[rickcdewitt]

what misinformation?the only true misinformation i've heard about the d35 is that its just too weak.thats not true ,you can use it for most applications.but, the d44 has larger bearings less moving parts and can be built stronger.i assumed the stub and its roller bearing were larger but if junkie says its got the same seal maybe its the same.that bearing is the reason i would have said it resists water better(larger takes more time to die).

take a minute and think about my previous posts junkie its hardly what you are making this out to be.just like with the alignment thread,you assume too much.

trucks don't float,you go through water you have to do grease.i DID NOT SAY that the d44 was more water proof,sorry you got hung up on the seal part #'s

some mods get very defensive over protecting the rep of the factory axles against imagined slights.

no offense but if a guy doesn't even put a couple thosand miles on his truck a year and hardly ever wheels it what the hell does he know about reliability,or how much that axle will take on a regular basis?

its easy to see you are biased towards the ttb(haha even your d44 truck is ttb)but you have to admit that even with 33"s or 35"s theres a place for the solid axle.i do see your concern that someone might read the post and think gee i'll just swap in a d44 to solve my deep water problems.let me say it clearly so you can't quote me and twist it up.if you put in an axle with larger bearings and slightly better sealing(pass side spindle bearing due to ttb) it will hold up a little better under harder,wetter useage.

no ones saying we should gut all our trucks and put in the wonderful d44 straight axle.its always been funny to me how touchy you mods get,junkie.

if you put the d35 uder a fullsize it would crap in a hurry,where the d44 does fine.the 35 is adequit for a ranger,no more.it all depends on how hard you want to use your truck.its the same as guys putting 60's under their trucks,they want more beef.the 44 can be built tougher than the 35 no question.

its very easy to just say that the d35 needs repair or the owner does'nt know how to work on them,so being stupid that person just goes and gets a d44 instead of working with the wonderful d35.and you being enlightened will save the forum from disinformation.
or on the other hand there are those who work their trucks hard enough to wear out the factory stuff fast enough to want an upgrade.but then again thats people who actually wheel more than once or twice a year.

you shoulden't be so fast to kiss his ass complekz,its only his OPINION.

 

[compleckz]

you shoulden't be so fast to kiss his ass complekz,its only his OPINION.

everyone agrees a d44 can be built stronger than a d35, even junkie.