351m/400m?

[281_Mk8]

Hey guys I've got a 1979 Lincoln Continental derby car that got pretty mangled on sunday. The engine is a 400M, with about 80K on it. It ran excellent and recieved no damage in the derby, the tranny is also in excellent condition. My 1988 Ranger's engine seized up a couple weeks ago, its a 2WD 2.0 5-speed. I was wondering if any of you have put a 351M/400 Ford V8 into a Ranger, and how much more difficult it would be rather than doing a 302 swap. Thanks.

 

[hairyboxnoogle]

Its pretty much impossible without a body lift... even with one you have to do extensive firwall surgery. Any dont waste your time IMO the 351M and 400 are pure junk, as far as im concerned the 400 is the worst engine built, by all manufactures for that matter.

 

[281_Mk8]

Well that sucks, I'm dissapointed to hear that. I dont have a lot of expierence with the older Ford engines (I have worked on a lot of modulars though), but that 400 ran great for us. The car was mangled pretty badly even for a derby car but the engine never quit on me, until i shut it off. I think it ran great but, again I didn't have the car long before i started tearing at apart for the derby. I think I might try to find a 2.3 to stick in there, I want my old ranger back very badly. Thanks for the help though.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

As far as I am concerned they are a stupid reliable engine that will run about run forever, think of it as a 3.0 on steroids. We have had 2 400's in our 80 F-350 (former farm truck) the first was the original for the truck and needed valves at about 150k. We found another and stuck it in instead, no idea how many miles are on it as the odometer as well as about everything else in the donar (another farm truck) was shot. It still runs great today and will start faster than anything else we have. They can have oiling problems, but there are fixes for it, the only thing we have fixed internally on ours was a busted pushrod ($.99 at O-Reilley's) We have had 14k lbs on the gooseneck ball and the old girl could still maintain the speed limit of 55, this truck has been around the block, it is no cream puff.

That said they are both (351M/400) rather big and heavy with both engines requiring a big block bolt pattern. You can use a 400 crank with mopar 360 rods to make a 408 stroker with a 351W block if you want the power in a smaller package that has more aftermarket support. A 302 or 351 swap would be alot easier to do, although I know a couple guys that are running them in Ranger.

Here is a pretty good read on the M-block engines.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/index.html

 

[hairyboxnoogle]

As far as I am concerned they are a stupid reliable engine that will run about run forever, think of it as a 3.0 on steroids. We have had 2 400's in our 80 F-350 (former farm truck) the first was the original for the truck and needed valves at about 150k. We found another and stuck it in instead, no idea how many miles are on it as the odometer as well as about everything else in the donar (another farm truck) was shot. It still runs great today and will start faster than anything else we have. They can have oiling problems, but there are fixes for it, the only thing we have fixed internally on ours was a busted pushrod ($.99 at O-Reilley's) We have had 14k lbs on the gooseneck ball and the old girl could still maintain the speed limit of 55, this truck has been around the block, it is no cream puff.

That said they are both (351M/400) rather big and heavy with both engines requiring a big block bolt pattern. You can use a 400 crank with mopar 360 rods to make a 408 stroker with a 351W block if you want the power in a smaller package that has more aftermarket support. A 302 or 351 swap would be alot easier to do, although I know a couple guys that are running them in Ranger.

Here is a pretty good read on the M-block engines.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/index.html

That said, i had the opposite luck i went through 4 351M and 400's in a total of 7,000mi. all lost due to rod bearings. They dont have much power either (145hp) and there is pretty much ZERO aftermarket, there is a set of performer edlejunk heads, weak cams, one set of headers, and one intake. Trust me, a 302 and a couple bucks and you will spank that 400. Plus its roughly 300lbs lighter when you factor in what a C6 weighs compared to a C4 or even an AOD

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

i went through 4 351M and 400's in a total of 7,000mi

Something is wrong with either their maintenance or set up because that is not right, there are way to many of these things still running around for that to be the norm.

Trust me, a 302 and a couple bucks and you will spank that 400. Plus its roughly 300lbs lighter when you factor in what a C6 weighs compared to a C4 or even an AOD

Depends on what you are doing, I am pretty sure ours would hold its own against a 302, which also had the C-6 as an option.

For a 400 I am showing 275-298 lb feet of torque at between 2000-2200 RPM depending on year (older ones have more). My 5.4 makes 350 at 2500 for comparison, which makes the 400 #'s look pretty good for as factory detuned as they are.



I am not advocating the 400 for a RBV swap, it would be alot of work, but the engine may be worth hanging onto if you would be inclined to get an F-150 to fix up down the road.

 

[wade]

there is pretty much ZERO aftermarket. A 302 and a couple bucks and you will spank that 400. Plus its roughly 300lbs lighter when you factor in what a C6 weighs compared to a C4 or even an AOD

DITTO. Before you seriously consider a 351M/400M swap, do your homework. Run around to parts stores and speed shops to check the availability of parts. I think you'll decide against it. I don't believe you'll find much of a performance market for them. Just not there!

 

[Jrod-13]

That said, i had the opposite luck i went through 4 351M and 400's in a total of 7,000mi. all lost due to rod bearings. They dont have much power either (145hp) and there is pretty much ZERO aftermarket, there is a set of performer edlejunk heads, weak cams, one set of headers, and one intake. Trust me, a 302 and a couple bucks and you will spank that 400. Plus its roughly 300lbs lighter when you factor in what a C6 weighs compared to a C4 or even an AOD

bullshit, total bullshit.. i can't deny your ability to wreck motors of unkown(to me) condition, but the rest is pure BS.. The 145 comment makes me kinda chuckle that you chose the lowest number ever on them, research back when they had compression, that number was 260hp, with a 2bbl

Lack of aftermarket?? come on..

heads? lets see, there is the edlebog heads you mentioned, 4V cleavland heads, 2v Assuie heads(which will dominate any factory windsor head, and alot of the aftermarket ones) Plus all of the different CHI heads.. research the "engine masters challange" 5 of the top 6 engines ran CHI heads, which are C/M heads..

weak cams? gimmie a break man... theres dozens of them.. off the shelf right into the .600"+ range.. open a summit and look an all the cleavland cams..

one set of headers?? serriously, do you think there is only one set of headers that fit every car and truck to ever use a cleavland or an M?

One intake? Being that I was just looking at both a single plane streetmaster, and a dual plane perormer recently, I'd say thats not the case, (there is actualy different ones that I know of, not including bling racing stuff)

but the part about a 302 and a couple bucks spaking a 400, that one really made me laugh.... You take $500, $1000, $1500 what ever the number, and I'll put it in a 400, I garantee the 400 will make more HP(at probably 1000rpm less) and probably 150-200ftlbs more torque. you can't argue with 1" more stroke.

Weight? its not as big a difference you might think, put the same tranny on both, and they will be within 150lbs.

Don't get me wrong, 302's have potential, I had one in my BII, and in my truck. Decent power, but zero torque, and I didn't like having to spin 6500 to make power..

This kinda reminds me of this summer at the mud drags, two old timers were looking over my buddies rig, and told him "ahh 400 eh, don't you know a 302 weighs so much less, and you can make so much more torque with a 302?" I chuckled to myself, and just said "hmm really"
But I did feel pretty bad for the guy when my buddy laughed in his face.. lol

 

[baddad457]

That said, i had the opposite luck i went through 4 351M and 400's in a total of 7,000mi. all lost due to rod bearings. They dont have much power either (145hp) and there is pretty much ZERO aftermarket, there is a set of performer edlejunk heads, weak cams, one set of headers, and one intake. Trust me, a 302 and a couple bucks and you will spank that 400. Plus its roughly 300lbs lighter when you factor in what a C6 weighs compared to a C4 or even an AOD

Sounds to me like someone didn't maintain nor run them as they should. The 351M is a dog, but the 400 can be made to run. There are plenty of aftermarket parts (you don't need aftermarket heads on these, they've got good heads already, plus you can always swap on 351C 4 bbl heads) There are two aftermarket intakes, not one. The 400's downfall is the pistons, they don't reach the deck tops, there is now one set that does, available on the Ford Truck Enthusiest site. The 400 isn't a good candidate for a Ranger, but due to it's unique motormounts, it's best left in a vehicle it came in.

 

[Ozwynn]

I don't know about aftermarket support, but I do know a logger in Vernonia Oregon that has daily driven (and beat the holy hell out of) an 80 F-350 crew cab with 400 and it is on the original engine. it has been through 1/2 a dozen carbeurators, chewed up a handful of transmissions/clutches and he busted atleast 1 transfer case and a few thousand u-joints. it gets terrible mileage but it is a monster and I have seen it pull partially buried 20" round logs (20 or 30 feet long) on a 40' cable up a hill we couldn't walk down with chainsaws (stuff I would not have done with my 79 F-250 4x4 with a 460, stuff that Rusty likes the think his 300 six could do). It is just a merciless and reliable work horse I don't know about performance on this engine but the engine its self is 10 foot tall and bullet proof and now way in hell could a 302 or a windsor could out work it. the small block is physically too small to take the amount of abuse that a big block is capable of and I don't know if my 460 would have out worked it, seems to me the 400 grunted better.

 

[Jrod-13]

I don't know if my 460 would have out worked it, seems to me the 400 grunted better.

Often times they DO, Believe it or not the 400 has a longer stroke than a 460. Infact, the only ford motor to ever have a longer stroke stroke than a 400, is the 5.4 motor.

 

[baddad457]

The 300 six is just a 400 with two less cylinders and a wedge head design. Same bore and stroke for both.

 

[baddad457]

Often times they DO, Believe it or not the 400 has a longer stroke than a 460. Infact, the only ford motor to ever have a longer stroke stroke than a 400, is the 5.4 motor.

Limit that to car motors on the stroke. The Super Duty series truck motors dwarfed the car engines in bore and stroke and total displacement. Weight too.

 

[Jrod-13]

Limit that to car motors on the stroke. The Super Duty series truck motors dwarfed the car engines in bore and stroke and total displacement. Weight too.

lol.. I guess I shoulda said car and "light truck" motors.. Those old 534's were a pretty wild motor though.. 4.5x4.2 IIRC.. though pretty sad they only made around 290hp, and 500ftlbs in their best years..

Now if you want to see a REALLY sweet, big, beautiful,(and fairly light actualy) look at the 1100 inch monster for made for sherman tanks(some pretty good facts and videos on youtube)

 

[Totalled]

Unretard the cam timing. Give the poor thing some compression, and give it some intake and exhaust lovin... the 400 will make HP with greater torque.