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What did you do to your Ranger today? (Part Deux!)


Yep.

Another question you may have the answer to...

Should I put my aftermarket pressure sender before or after the filter? I have a sandwich plate coming with the gauge, that would allow me to take the pressure reading right off of the pump, before the oil flows through the filter. Of course, filters have some degree of restriction, and thus there is a pressure drop after the filter. Is it enough of a drop to warrant moving the sender after the filter, i.e. where the OEM sensor goes in the main oil galley.

(My thinking is that I want the reading closest to what the bearings, tensioners, etc are seeing, not necessarily the (possinly higher) pressure right off the pump)

I thought you assembled a T for your OPS?

IMHO... I don't believe an oil filter offers enough restriction to even move the needle on an oil gauge. I don't have any supporting tech data to prove that point but I will guarantee you will see zero oil pressure until the oil sees the restriction of the bearings.

One comment on the sandwich adaptor. I use one with a glow shift pressure gauge and sender. If I remember correctly... the sender gets a 12 volt supply and a signal circuit back to the gauge. If your set up requires a ground at the sendet... be sure to run an 1/8 pipe tape in the hole you plan to use to clear out the powder coat from the threads. Also ensure the adaptor center nut has a clean area to tighten the adapter to the oil filter flange. This will ensure your adaptor and sender grounds properly to the engine.

20221019_080918.jpg


If you end up using their coolant hose adaptor for temp... clean those threads too and then drill and tap the housing for a ground wire.
 
That's kind of the plan. On the way home I picked up a mechanical OPG from O'Reilly. Will plumb it in tomorrow and see what it says.



No, has it's own sending uint. You are exactly right on at least the 98+ engines. That is why my interpretation of the flickering gauge was that either I had a faulty sender or the oil pressure is borderline when hot. Hence installing a gauge to verify oil pressure.



You are very likely correct on your assessment of mechanical vs electrical OPGs.As I meant to say before my intention was/is to use this gauge for temporary troubleshooting purposes. I did not want to drill a hole in the firewall to run an oil line into the cab. An electrical seemed to be the most practical solution for the situation. If it works correctly it still is the most practical IMO, but from what I say today I need to use a mechanical to confirm whether that electrical gauge/sender is good or not. (really hoping for not, but not holding my breath)

Before leaving the shop I came to the same conclusion about temporarily mounting a mechanical gauge to the cowl. Not ideal, but it should suffice for my needs and last long enough for my purposes. Gauge I purchased came with a plastic line as you describes assuming that it is long enough to reach the cowl without melting on a header.

On the subject of line material. I'm not worried about the plastic line as much as I don't want a line at all. I would agree that the metal lines are better, but I still don't like piping hot oil into the cab for a mechanical gauge. My F-100 still has the same OPG that dad installed in the late 80s or early 90s. It's using the same plastic line that it came with. When engine gets rebuilt/swapped, I'll be deeming an OPG unnecessary and that will be removed. Until then it's not hurting anything sitting there.

You may be onto something with the pickup tube suction, but I don't know how one would check that without removing the pan. Either remove the engine and take the pan off, or remove the differential and raise the motor, then drop the pan enough to reach between it and the block. Removing the differential is a near future project and if I haven't found a solution before then I'll consider going that route.

Just a thought on that last possibility. The cold oil is thinner and slower to flow than hot oil. As such the oil should be harder for the pump to draw up the pickup tube when cold. If it were a leak prior to the pump, I would think it should be more likely to draw in air when the oil is cold than when the oil is hot. Like sucking fluid through a straw, if there is a crack above the fluid its likely to pull air in through that crack, the thicker the fluid the more likely it is to draw in air. A better analogy might be the bypass valves they install on cold air intakes in cars, in case they drive through a deep puddle and the filter gets submerged.

Possible that electrical could cause the flickering needle, but I don't think so. If that were to be the case I should have seen it doing the same when I drove the donor home. (IMO it's more likely that sender failed during swap, than harness was damaged during swap, and as likely that the engine I used is more worn than believed.) I also should have seen that symptom after replacing the sender, with it stationary and running up to operating temp, the underhood temperatures should have been higher than when driving down the road. If it were vibration induced it shouldn't shouldn't always come back to working, and should also have shown the flickering symptom when off idle.


I'm not qualified to answer that question, but mine is teed off the original sender location. I'm about 90% certain that is after the filter, but not 100%.

First, no criticism, but a lot of what we write here people will refer to in the future. I think you have a typo on “thinner“ versus “thicker.

IMG_1793.jpeg


Then, a couple more points. Engineering school teaches you how to analyze a problem, and then break it down into small, manageable pieces. When you’re dealing with very big, very expensive industrial or commercial issues, it will always prove to be the most cost efficient approach, even if it takes longer. Cost efficient in the sense that in the long run it will solve more problems more quickly.

Having said that, my parents owned commercial real estate, and I followed my father around as a little kid and was his helper on anything that needed to be fixed from boilers to generators to plumbing to electrical, you name it. After eighth grade, I got a job in one of those great old hardware stores that had everything in three sizes in four colors. I had my first car and truck and was driving a couple years before I got my drivers license. Not bragging on any of this, it just “is.” The hands on experience gives you a sense about how stuff works, and when you run up on a problem, where to poke your head first, which may not be the same starting point you get with the engineering approach.

I’m saying all of this with a smile, because what I sent you earlier, was definitely the “shotgun“ approach, anything, and everything. I think you know, my intent was to give you many things to think about. I’m not there, and you are, hopefully one or two of the comments spurs you’re thinking to tackle something in the right direction.

At one specific point on the thicker versus thinner oil. Fundamentally, we are both correct, but “fluid dynamics” is one of the most complex concepts in engineering. Why? Because a lot of stuff that happens defies basic common sense. Like when the space shuttle exploded, a simple test is worth 1000 engineering calculations and postulations.

Simplified, yes, when the oil is thicker, you are correct it may suck in more air, but then it is pushing that thick oil through the filter and pushing it through the engine. Fluids are incompressible (typically), but gases (air) compress easily. The pump has to be able to pump the thick oil through all the little nooks and crannies and ports in that engine. When it’s cool and thick, if a little air gets in, it’s not inconceivable that that air would get compressed to the point where it would not show up on the gauge. As the oil heats up and gets thinner, whether or not more or less air gets in the system, the oil will flow much more easily, it won’t compress any trapped air to the same degree, and that’s where the flicker in the gauge can come in after the oil is thinner.

Now, that covers a couple of 1000 things that can happen when you pump different things through a pipe or a machine. That paragraph is a paraphrase of five or six senior level courses over a couple of years. I hope that makes sense to you, and I hope it helps.

BTW, I have always felt that my “education” working with my dad, tinkering with cars, working in the hardware stores, and doing construction in the summers was an education equal to what I got in the classroom. Not enough of that goes on today

Again, I hope it helps.
 
I thought you assembled a T for your OPS?

IMHO... I don't believe an oil filter offers enough restriction to even move the needle on an oil gauge. I don't have any supporting tech data to prove that point but I will guarantee you will see zero oil pressure until the oil sees the restriction of the bearings.

One comment on the sandwich adaptor. I use one with a glow shift pressure gauge and sender. If I remember correctly... the sender gets a 12 volt supply and a signal circuit back to the gauge. If your set up requires a ground at the sendet... be sure to run an 1/8 pipe tape in the hole you plan to use to clear out the powder coat from the threads. Also ensure the adaptor center nut has a clean area to tighten the adapter to the oil filter flange. This will ensure your adaptor and sender grounds properly to the engine.

View attachment 110168

If you end up using their coolant hose adaptor for temp... clean those threads too and then drill and tap the housing for a ground wire.

I agree, if there is no problem with the filter, if it is not plugged, somehow, or defective. And I come back to, a pressure sensor or gauge after the filter should be the best indication of what’s really happening inside the engine.

I will defer to you, in the sense that if everything is the right parts, in good condition, and installed properly, there should never be any difference. The filters are designed for “free flow,“ which means they won’t alter the pressure profile at all.

As a gray hair, let me just say things don’t always work the way they’re supposed to (like my knees, like my hips, like my brain, like my little brain…)
 
I thought you assembled a T for your OPS?

IMHO... I don't believe an oil filter offers enough restriction to even move the needle on an oil gauge. I don't have any supporting tech data to prove that point but I will guarantee you will see zero oil pressure until the oil sees the restriction of the bearings.

One comment on the sandwich adaptor. I use one with a glow shift pressure gauge and sender. If I remember correctly... the sender gets a 12 volt supply and a signal circuit back to the gauge. If your set up requires a ground at the sendet... be sure to run an 1/8 pipe tape in the hole you plan to use to clear out the powder coat from the threads. Also ensure the adaptor center nut has a clean area to tighten the adapter to the oil filter flange. This will ensure your adaptor and sender grounds properly to the engine.

View attachment 110168

If you end up using their coolant hose adaptor for temp... clean those threads too and then drill and tap the housing for a ground wire.
I have a tee assembled, yes, but I’m not sure if it will fit or not. There’s not much space between the sender and the back of the compressor, I may need a riser.

I ordered the same sandwich adapter from glowshift, purely because I don’t know if I’ll use the tee yet. If I don’t, I can return the adapter.
I also ordered their coolant temp adapter, and will keep your tips in mind when I install it.

I just figured I’d ask about the location, as the factory sender tee would place it after the filter, and the sandwich plate is before the filter. But honestly, like you said, at the flow rates an oil pump makes, the difference is probably negligible.
 
Pressure washed the '90 yesterday then got it in the shop and aired up the tires, took some measurements before I start diving into things hopefully later thisafternoon
 
Ordered a hitch.... My factory tow pkg one has a giant rust hole in it. Why? I dunno. Rest of the truck is in great shape, save for one 1/2 long rust bubble at the very bottom of the passenger jump door. The frame just has a bit of surface rust, but just what you'd expect for its age (here in NC we very very occasionally brine the roads, that's probably what this is from).
 
Oil and filter change. Check brakes, just rotated tires last weej from the mud tires back to the street tires so didnt do that.

For the first time in my life, i have now seen an oil filter that spun itself loose. I have seen oil pan drain bolts, timing tensioner bolts, alternator bolts, but never seen an oil filter backed out. That explains the oil loss and dripping. I thought i had a seal leak but when i reached down to loosen the oil filter, it was completely loose and could be spun by just one finger tip. Oil is covering the starter and running all over the block and wind blown on the transmission and exhaust. I would regularly check it and add because i figured i would change back to dino oil and plan on doing some gaskets at this oil change.

Well, maybe i dont have to do gaskets now that i found this crazy stuff.

We shall see though. And the ol truck is still rocking and rolling at 215k miles.
 
First, no criticism, but a lot of what we write here people will refer to in the future. I think you have a typo on “thinner“ versus “thicker.

Yes. I'll fix it in a moment.

For the first time in my life, i have now seen an oil filter that spun itself loose.

Now you know why the quick lube guys give it a few ugga duggas. ;missingteeth;
 
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A picture is worth a 1000 words. I got this out of a box of 1/2x10 zinc coated steel bolts at Home Depot.

IMG_1794.jpeg


It’s perfect, except for, oh, wait, look at this, they never threaded the bolt. I actually have a collection of this kind of stuff back from when I worked at the hardware store as a kid. Sockets, round inside, that never had the hex put in, an SK wrench that is round on the box end, a couple nuts with no holes in them, and all kinds of smooth bolts like this.

And all of that is on a product that you can see. When they’re making something like oil filters, they can’t check every one. In the old days, the technicians would pull them off at random and check them. Today, they actually have computerized random number generators that take into mind when there have been failures before, and they select the specific filters in the run to be tested by the lab guys.

The assumption the oil filter, or really anything, isn’t a problem because it’s not usually a problem may not be a good assumption when you’re banging your head against the wall.

Hope it helps
 
a couple nuts with no holes in them
Never worked the hardware store, but have handled a lot of aircraft grade hardware in my line of work. Seen bunch of this kind of stuff over the years. One of the most annoying things I've encountered was an unthreaded nut. Grabbed the amount I needed off benchstock. The nuts screwed onto fasteners inside a blind hole. A few went on great, then I just couldn't get one started. Tried and tried, but it wouldn't start. I assumed I just wasn't getting it lined up right, not an uncommon problem when working in a spot like that. Turned out there were no threads. I started checking them after that.



Verdict on the gauges... Electric gauge is not inaccurate, it just doesn't register below 10 PSI and for some reason they mark that as 0 on the gauge. Installed the mechanical in parallel with it to day and let the truck idle up from cold to operating temp. From a cold start they matched almost perfectly the same tick for tick. Cold they both read about 44 psi, they dropped the same all the way down to 10 (or zero on electric) as it came up to operating temp. Plan is to put a thicker oil in and start building an engine. It was going to happen eventually anyway.
 
Never worked the hardware store, but have handled a lot of aircraft grade hardware in my line of work. Seen bunch of this kind of stuff over the years. One of the most annoying things I've encountered was an unthreaded nut. Grabbed the amount I needed off benchstock. The nuts screwed onto fasteners inside a blind hole. A few went on great, then I just couldn't get one started. Tried and tried, but it wouldn't start. I assumed I just wasn't getting it lined up right, not an uncommon problem when working in a spot like that. Turned out there were no threads. I started checking them after that.



Verdict on the gauges... Electric gauge is not inaccurate, it just doesn't register below 10 PSI and for some reason they mark that as 0 on the gauge. Installed the mechanical in parallel with it to day and let the truck idle up from cold to operating temp. From a cold start they matched almost perfectly the same tick for tick. Cold they both read about 44 psi, they dropped the same all the way down to 10 (or zero on electric) as it came up to operating temp. Plan is to put a thicker oil in and start building an engine. It was going to happen eventually anyway.

Yeah on the gages, boo on the engine rebuild…

Question: if you add up all the gas back-and-forth to the parts store, the cost of all the gauges, and ten cents an hour for your time, could you just have bought an engine by now?

I’ve been down that road more times than I can’t remember……

EDIT: I don’t like the idea of any gage that reads “zero“ if it’s not really zero. I’m wondering if the intent of that is that below 10 psi the engine isn’t being lubed properly, so that’s the red flag. Is there some other kind of red light or warning for low pressure?
 
Rick, I'm not even sure what you are getting at there.

As for the 0 thing. The electric gauge uses a stepper motor. Between the gauge and sender most likely it wouldn't have enough resolution to read below the 10 PSI accurately. Most gauges are installed for show on healthy engines so they aren't going to read that low anyway. Even the mechanical gauge, although it shows 10 and 0 there are no ticks between those numbers. I would guess that they don't figure that range is important on the application, because if it's dropping close to 10 you already know you have problems.
 
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Should I put my aftermarket pressure sender before or after the filter? I have a sandwich plate coming with the gauge, that would allow me to take the pressure reading right off of the pump, before the oil flows through the filter. Of course, filters have some degree of restriction, and thus there is a pressure drop after the filter. Is it enough of a drop to warrant moving the sender after the filter, i.e. where the OEM sensor goes in the main oil galley.

The oil filter has a bypass valve which bypasses nearly all of the oil at flows higher than idle, so it should not matter. A plugged oil filter will only result in no filtering at all, it will not cause a reduction of pressure/flow that the engine experiences.
 
Rick, I'm not even sure what you are getting at there.

As for the 0 thing. The electric gauge uses a stepper motor. Between the gauge and sender most likely it wouldn't have enough resolution to read below the 10 PSI accurately. Most gauges are installed for show on healthy engines so they aren't going to read that low anyway. Even the mechanical gauge, although it shows 10 and 0 there are no ticks between those numbers. I would guess that they don't figure that range is important on the application, because if it's dropping close to 10 you already know you have problems.

I guess I digressed into academic thought, theory and possibilities, for the sake of theory and possibilities….
 
A picture is worth a 1000 words. I got this out of a box of 1/2x10 zinc coated steel bolts at Home Depot.

View attachment 110170

It’s perfect, except for, oh, wait, look at this, they never threaded the bolt. I actually have a collection of this kind of stuff back from when I worked at the hardware store as a kid. Sockets, round inside, that never had the hex put in, an SK wrench that is round on the box end, a couple nuts with no holes in them, and all kinds of smooth bolts like this.

And all of that is on a product that you can see. When they’re making something like oil filters, they can’t check every one. In the old days, the technicians would pull them off at random and check them. Today, they actually have computerized random number generators that take into mind when there have been failures before, and they select the specific filters in the run to be tested by the lab guys.

The assumption the oil filter, or really anything, isn’t a problem because it’s not usually a problem may not be a good assumption when you’re banging your head against the wall.

Hope it helps
As an auto tech, this happens more often than you'd think. The most common I see, and by far the most annoying, is lugnuts.

Yup. Brand new lugs, sometimes aftermarket and sometimes OEM, that just straight up had no threads. Just like @JoshT , I was very confused the first time it happened to me a while back. Now I check all of them.
 

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