V8 Swap conundrum..

[jmcleek]

Brand loyalty is not the point, if the question is will it fit? Yeah, any thing you want to put in there will fit. Is it practical? That depends on what you are willing to do to get it in there. Do you have the experiance to do the job?
Is it a common swap? Common swaps you can buy the parts to do the job, even headers. If it is not a common swap you are left making a lot of the parts. Years ago I saw a early 50's jag that a guy put a small block ford in, all the frame work past the fire wall had to be removed and re-fabricated. As a rule of thumb it is generally easier to swap in the same family of manufactorer and engine family. stay close to your skill level. if you want to finish.

 

[bobbywalter]

I doubt sales of JY engines really bother any OEM very much...

Ford likes their OHC engines and cube for cube they do a pretty good job of making their pushrod counterparts look bad. Would you prefer a 420hp DOHC 5.0, 425hp pushrod 6.2 or 370hp pushrod 5.7 that all get about the same milage? They get 650hp out of a 5.8 that can still dodge the gas guzzler tax... from an OEM standpoint they are a very effecient design. They don't swap well... but new vehicle sales will easily trump out the few crate motors they will sell for swaps.

i will need some context for this...

Brand loyalty is not the point, if the question is will it fit? Yeah, any thing you want to put in there will fit. Is it practical? That depends on what you are willing to do to get it in there. Do you have the experiance to do the job?
Is it a common swap? Common swaps you can buy the parts to do the job, even headers. If it is not a common swap you are left making a lot of the parts. Years ago I saw a early 50's jag that a guy put a small block ford in, all the frame work past the fire wall had to be removed and re-fabricated. As a rule of thumb it is generally easier to swap in the same family of manufactorer and engine family. stay close to your skill level. if you want to finish.

in America the chevy 350 is the common swap. regardless of engine family in anything ever. especially old jaguars.


thus the boredom with it.











tyler.lee132, 1000 dollars for a captain caveman engine?

whether an old 302-351 or 350, if it is not in turnkey running condition with an operational transmission it is a horrible investment.

a school project engine is 300 tops without it being running for my money. if it has a nice induction system on it and runs good on the ground or test stand then its acceptable. barter a lil more at least and have him make it a runner for that price...hear it run before you buy it...hook it to a radiator and run it a good 15 20 minutes and watch the oil pressure carefully....if its good...good.


still, if you have a thousand saved for that thing, save another 1500 and get a nice powertrain from a later low mile ls type vehicle..


regardless if he will give you a runner for a 1000 and its new as described, a decent 400 trans or 700r4 or manual of your choosing are not too bad. camaro manifolds which i assume are on it can work well depending which set it has or you can modify the slick advanced headers easy enough.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

i will need some context for this...

Ford Mustang GT (5.0), Chevrolet Camaro SS (6.2) and Dodge Challenger RT (5.7) The 650hp 5.8 is the Shelby GT-500.

I advise against a non OD trans like a TH400 if you do much highway driving. My C5 is the biggest peeve I have of my swap, a V8 at 2500rpm at 60mph moves a lot of fuel. Of course when I did my swap I lived in town and didn't think I would ever be able to buy a place in the country, two years later I got a place in the country I am going back in and fixing that as soon as I sneek up on a M5OD.

 

[jmcleek]

in America the chevy 350 is the common swap. regardless of engine family in anything ever. especially old jaguars.
I agree but try to find a swap kit to put one in a ranger. the small block chevy is as common as grass and the parts are cheap , this makes them very atractive to the amator but knot as easy because of less resorces for this swap.

 

[bobbywalter]

oh. if your looking for a specific kit...or think a specific kit is needed then i could see where things could be difficult.


installing a 350 in a ttb/tib ranger is every bit as simple as a 302. depending on doner it can be easier. that is if you can call a 302 install simple.

in 2wd applications most of the manifolds on the earlier trucks and cam rams work great. 4wd needs a oil filter relocater in lower trucks but workable in lifted trucks.

i have tried various kits and pieces for the 302 swaps in rangers and found them lacking in most needs. the later kits are better though, earlier kits made from the 89 or so up to the 97-98 years had crappy headers that i hated...the later offerings from advanced and the premium offerings from l&l are very nice components for sure.



generally i would say a guy is better off with a overdrive trans, as 85's experience definitely indicates is a worthy chore for driving any sort of miles. mine was the same.

but, if your willing to live with 308 gears or 327's with sane tires then a 500 cfm 4 bbl 350 that is well matched and tuned or 302 of the same specs can net great hiway mpg...15-18 range as a potential. not easy to dial in but has been done for decades.

in my case a carb was out of the question...and i required lockers and 35 in tires as a minimum for the wheeling i liked to do....so overdrive and 456 gears were the result.

today i would do 373 gears and 33 in tires for the road and a bad ass double t case setup and 38's up to 42's for trail riding. but with a 6.0 in the engine bay if i were to use a gasoline engine. only reason is they are cheap and plentiful today in low mile availability.

 

[bobbywalter]

Ford Mustang GT (5.0), Chevrolet Camaro SS (6.2) and Dodge Challenger RT (5.7) The 650hp 5.8 is the Shelby GT-500.

what i am referring to is not to help ford make profits, its what they do for the little guy to enjoy their product in the hot rod realm.


if lutz would have run ford we would have help....cost effectively hotrodding our fords.



ford offerings are a slap in the face when compared to gm's. and i am talking modern stuff, not just the old 350 crap. dont get me wrong, i would put money on the sealed old school ford outliving the sealed gm stuff on the circle realm, but the price is terrible. AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN....ALWAYS!

for the price of just a aluminator engine with no fead or electronics you can get a real 400 plus hp and ft pound engine complete....to the catalytic converters that is 50 STATE emissions legal.....you ever look at the connect and cruise programs? outstanding....gm isnt making a killing at this...that is how they thank their brand loyal followers....

compare this to the locked up calibrations that ford puts out stressing the aftermarkets ability to keep costs reasonable and the modern theft controls that also have to be physically bypassed internally to the TI-VCT engine PCM's along with the software.....well i cant consider that anything more then a slap in the face and a long hard piss down my back.


hey! its nothing money cant solve. wheelbarrow fulls when compared directly to what gm is doing.


i would rather have a 351 over a 350 for damn sure if i wanted to use some old school shit. but with whats waiting at the junkyard and current and plentiful in low mile availability which ultimately allows for the best swap....its obvious what is the best choice for power and economy.

and its a shame it dont have a blue oval on it.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I agree but try to find a swap kit to put one in a ranger. the small block chevy is as common as grass and the parts are cheap , this makes them very atractive to the amator but knot as easy because of less resorces for this swap.

The Ranger SBF kits are a joke, you are a lot better to piece it out yourself.

what i am referring to is not to help ford make profits, its what they do for the little guy to enjoy their product in the hot rod realm.

Companies are in business to make money, not worry about the little guy enjoying himself.

Just a shot in the dark here but since mods are not very swap friendly I am going to guess the aluminator is intended to replace a 4.6 in a Mustang and you would already have a FEAD.

I have checked out the new 5.0 (like what is in a Mustang) and it is about $6k for a 400hp engine with a $1800 plug and play harness you are in business. I have never bumped into what kind of tune is on the plug and play thing though... They custom tune them all over the place, I have watched them tune new Mustangs on dynos at shows...

New to new GM doesn't really look like that much of a bargain.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6007-m50/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6017-a504v/overview/

vs

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19301358/overview/

They have a couple to pick from, none are cheaper than the Ford unless you go reman:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/section/engine-assemblies/brand/chevrolet-performance/part-type/crate-engines?keyword=ls

Personally I am too tight to sink that much in either engine...

I have heard it was because they were too stuck on the old Flatheads and let GM take the market away with their fancy OHC engines way back when, GM taking over the aftermarket rhelm didn't happen when the mods came out. I dunno, it was way before my time. They do offer warrenty friendly tuners and blowers for the Mustangs though.

 

[jmcleek]

when I say resources I mean info like the Ranger Station and other forums and books. I am not saying knot to use your engen of choose but to do the research and make sure you have the skills that the swap will requer , mechanical welding and other fabbing skells.

 

[tyler.lee132]

One of my replies made me realize something. I like the look of a carbed engine. Is there anyway i could just carb the 4.0 and clean it up and get rid of some wires and make it look pretty badass until i can get some good money behind a swap project?

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

There isn't a good way to carb a 4.0, it would be a PITA with your electronic dash too.

Probably not much better as far as making it work with your truck but a GM TBI looks vaguely like a carb. Some of the aftermarket's offer TBI fuel injection systems too.

 

[bobbywalter]

oh no....those are not relative comparisons by far. hell look at the whole catalog from ford racing and gmpp and its disgusting what ford puts up.


i am talking 50 state legal swap, to get the vv mod coyote 5.0 to the spec of the e rod is 10 grand minimum if you were to swap either into a fox body for a daily driver weekend warrior. the tuning is not so easy as well with the coyote because ford shortchanged everybody intentionally.


this is what you compare the coyote you linked to.

http://www.race-mart.com/GM_Performance_Parts-GMP-19258008.html

sure its a base 325 hp model...
it is a bargain.

Additional components include:
•Engine Wiring harness
•Exhaust manifolds
•Catalytic converters
•Oxygen sensors and sensor bosses
•Fuel tank evaporative canister
•Mass airflow sensor and sensor boss
•Accelerator pedal (for use with the LS electronic throttle)
•Air filter
•Instruction manual



the key difference is what you can do to increase power 120-200 hp for next to nothing after you get it. granted its 4-500 bux so it puts this out at 7200 or so. most people can go down the road for 8500 or so over 400 hp compared to 12 for the ford. add hp from there the gm is cheap and bore/strokable and the ford is not.


i can barely build the same quality 351 out of a typical pickup truck for that price to those sustained powerlevels...and it wont pass current emissions even with the converters.. and the 351 will never approach the strength of that engine. granted to go huge in hp you will want different rods then what it is equipped with.


current ford trucks if used as donors and most current crates wont have a fead to provide for a powersteering pump. so electric powersteering upgrades will come i am sure. and making a fead is not a big deal for many guys that can do this. its just a shame about the electronics as working with the yard stuff is hindering me still, years after introduction. i like the 3.7 and would like to install it in the b2.


i am sorry but the 5.0 or any of the ford units pale in capacity to what that e-rod offers. its shameful what they have done. you cant legally swap it into a 90's vehicle as offered at that price point.





big reason ford has painted itself into a corner with the cammer turds was due to taking for granted or rather gambling on intended govt cafe mandates in the 80's that were intended to be in full effect by 95 or so and bean counters having more influence then should be safely allowed.. by the time it was realized cafe standards would be relaxed to realistic levels in the late 80's it was too late to turn back... how one can rationally come up with 9 degrees of separation between banks as tolerance and 8 miles of timing chain being more efficient to operate the valves is one thing (and it is on many points of the curves)...but no bore and stroke options is horrendous for a blunder. then they did it again with the coyote....all they had to do was revise the bore spacing and they knew it, but in haste it is what it is...those poor bastards being confined like that is sad..

as to the original mod motors i can say at its conception...what should we expect from the outgoing crew that came up with the montego and granada. but the coyote could have been so much more.

 

[bobbywalter]

One of my replies made me realize something. I like the look of a carbed engine. Is there anyway i could just carb the 4.0 and clean it up and get rid of some wires and make it look pretty badass until i can get some good money behind a swap project?

you could use this with megaspark or something.

its a morana piece of course.....but it will eat up your wallet still.

http://www.moranav6racing.com/category.html?CategoryID=32

 

[bobbywalter]

mega jolt rather......thought it was mega spark for some reason


old international with it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwCD9kBdzco


that new intake with a 390 cfm 4 bbl would be different to say the least. cant see you getting out of it under 7-800 bux though.

 

[tyler.lee132]

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/0-8007K/10002/-1?parentProductId=743849

Found the carburetor, i think?

And if i used the morana convertor and got the megajolt system what else would i need to do to convert it over? I'm assuming it's been done since morana sells the intake convertor...

 

[dangerranger83]

That's alot of money in the end to put into a 4.0.

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