Automatic or manual for towing

[Wicked_Sludge]

id LOOOOVE to have a 5 speed w/granny gear in my truck...but i dont think there are any overdrive granny-gear-equipped transmissions out there...are there?

 

[Nipplechops]

Not that I know of. I had an idea on my current truck of regearing a transfer case so instead of having 4-low, you would have more of a split ratio axle kind of reduction. Maybe the equivalent of a 3.55 rear for normal driving (2-high setting) and a 4.56 for towing (modify the 4-low reduction ratio). Seems that wouldn't be very easily done without some serious machining capabilities. Plus I would only have a 2 wheel drive (not really interested in 4x4's outside of Zuk's), so I would need to eliminate the front drive portion of the case.

One could always bastardize their truck and use a 4.3L Chev V6 along with an SM465. Those things crawl in Granny Low, but lack overdrive. Plus they are a big and heavy bitch of a trans! Bulletproof though. If you need that kind of low for towing, you may want to upgrade from a Ranger!

EDIT: The ZF 5 speed found behind 460's and 351's in F250's and F350's in the old body style trucks are effectively a five speed. More like a four speed with overdrive and Granny Low. Projectnitemare has one behind the V8n in his Ranger.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

...don't "bastardize" your truck. lol. What about those Gear Vendor overdrive units. If you could fit one to a 5 speed, then drop the axle ratio down, you could effectively have a hi and lo for towing. Then a 4 low and Extreme 4 low!

 

[1badexplorer]

As far as grany gear 5spds, the best one that I've found is the NV4500. I got one in my ford dually. The trans is behind a Cummins Turbo Diesel and it is a great combo. I got grany if I wanna creep around or pull out with a very heavy load on a hill (havent had to use it for that yet 4.10s and a cummins don't mix unless you like to drive around with a top speed of 62mph). Ford also used a ZF 5spd in their heavy duty trucks from 88 till now thats grany gear 5spd

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

Nipplechops, your essentially discribing a crawl box, or doubler...which has been done (and maintained 4wd as well). the problem with that setup is the planetary gear reduction used in transfer cases cannot be shifted on the fly. it works well for crawling off road...but in order to get a load moving on the highway, you have to stop to shift back into high range...so there goes your "granny".

the gear vendors overdrive is neat and all...but it wouldnt be enough. even with the M5OD's 1st gear range of 3.72 and axles loaded with 5.13's, my final gear ratio would still be higher than...say...1badexplorer's NV4500 with its 6.34 granny gear and, lets say, pathetic 3.08 axle gears.

a transmission with a 6+:1 1st gear and a 22% or better overdrive would be just sweet.

 

[Will]

You don't need that low of a gear for towing. That is a barn-yard gear. It serves no purpose once you are on pavement.

An auto is better, period. The torque converter is a torque multiplier. It splits every gear if you are really loading the gear. People like to dance up and down at the ultra-low rating of the granny gear, but the torque converter in an auto does provide that multiplication. Its variable as to the load place on the converter but up to 2.5x torque increase is seen and it compares easily to the low-low in a Muncie 465. The thing is, you actually have to LOAD it. It does not crawl around at that ratio. But it will provide it if torque is applied.

The automatic transmission is too often attacked by people that don't know anything about it. Fact is, there are many more TH400s than M465s installed in Chevy trucks and many more of those TH400s are still running around doing their jobs.

for me, with a 26% grade of a driveway, when I pull into my drive off the road it's in second. I head up the drive and it downshifts to first. Than, the trailer starts to load the truck, it slows and the converter starts its magic and it starts up the hill. You can be at a dead stop, 14,000# on the motor, push the pedal to the floor, converter starts working and it starts moving again. No low-range or anything. It's not magic, it's not nursing the clutch. Its the converter.

I wouldn't swap my TH400 for a M465 in a million years. I learned to drive a stick with a C30 dually flatbed with a 6.2 diesel and an M465 with a 400 gallon tank. It's not anywhere near as good on hills with a load.

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

You don't need that low of a gear for towing. That is a barn-yard gear. It serves no purpose once you are on pavement.

i use 2wd low range all the time around the yard, boat launch, parking lots, etc. i'd love to have a crawl gear for those instances that doesnt require me to stop before i can shift to a higher gear...not to mention the usefulness offroad (crawl ratio).

The torque converter is a torque multiplier.

thats all fine and dandy, but you didnt take into account the much higher 1st gear ratio of most auto transmissions (2.47:1 for the A4LD and friends). even with the torque multiplication effect of the converter, thats still the same amount of torque at the wheels as a 6:1 granny gear.

plus (and this is just personal preference) i just prefer the control, fun, and feel of a stick.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

plus (and this is just personal preference) i just prefer the control, fun, and feel of a stick.

he he he... Sorry bud, I had to pull that out and flaunt it. I guess the two advantages I see most important in a manual is the lack of heat that it produces when towing versus a torque converter slipping harshly. And second the 5 speed doesn't eat up as much power as an automatic. But, I have a 3.0L so I need the torque I can get.

 

[racsan]

my '92 gm had a NV4500 creeper 1st, 5th overdrive manual trans. too big to be put under a ranger. i use my low range alot. i do wish it could be shifted on the go into high range. the manaul trans in the 3.0 trucks is said to have lower ratios in 1-3 to let the engine rev up a bit more because thats where a 3.0 makes its power. it would be neat to put 3.0 trans parts in a 4.0 case and try it. although if you have a 3.0 youre just limited to changing differential gearing. id go to 4.56's but thats 1,000 bucks i just dont have right now. if it was a 2wd id probly go ahead with it and get a detroit locker.

 

[Gotta_gofast]

All non-4.0L M5OD-R1 transmissions have a low 3.72:1 first gear
All 4.0L M5OD-R1 transmissions have a 3.40:1 first gear

 

[Wicked_Sludge]

^ thats the reason the rare M5OD's that backed a few 2.9's is so coveted. it can be bolted to a 4.0, and has the lower 1st gear of the non-4.0 transmissions.

but its still only about half the gear i want an M5OD with 5.13 axle gears still doesnt have the final low as a granny gear even with 3.55.

 

[The Fox]

Not that I know of. I had an idea on my current truck of regearing a transfer case so instead of having 4-low, you would have more of a split ratio axle kind of reduction. Maybe the equivalent of a 3.55 rear for normal driving (2-high setting) and a 4.56 for towing (modify the 4-low reduction ratio). Seems that wouldn't be very easily done without some serious machining capabilities. Plus I would only have a 2 wheel drive (not really interested in 4x4's outside of Zuk's), so I would need to eliminate the front drive portion of the case.

One could always bastardize their truck and use a 4.3L Chev V6 along with an SM465. Those things crawl in Granny Low, but lack overdrive. Plus they are a big and heavy bitch of a trans! Bulletproof though. If you need that kind of low for towing, you may want to upgrade from a Ranger!

EDIT: The ZF 5 speed found behind 460's and 351's in F250's and F350's in the old body style trucks are effectively a five speed. More like a four speed with overdrive and Granny Low. Projectnitemare has one behind the V8n in his Ranger.

My Super 18 Eaton on my big truck has a 19.7:1 in first low to 0.73:1 in OD. The truck has 4.33 gears, plus the low range in the transfer case. That is what you need, a full size 18 spd, with low gears and a transfer.

 

[Hahnsb2]

^ thats the reason the rare M5OD's that backed a few 2.9's is so coveted. it can be bolted to a 4.0, and has the lower 1st gear of the non-4.0 transmissions.

but its still only about half the gear i want an M5OD with 5.13 axle gears still doesnt have the final low as a granny gear even with 3.55.

I'd sure love a 2.9 M5OD in my sploder, the 3.27 gears are giving me great mileage but the take off blows, it's just too damn high geared.

 

[rusty ol ranger]

Granny low is not a "Barnyard gear"

Its a "clutch saver" gear.

Ive used granny low all time in my 78 when starting off with a heavy load. Not that i couldnt take off in second i just dont see the point in doing that to the clutch. You can shift out of granny 1st while rolling. You just cant shift into it (unless you double clutch and pray)

Also, most of the 4sp granny lows have a low reverse gear as well, which really saves the clutch when trying to back a heavy trailer up.

Ill take a 4sp over an automatic anyday. Will the only reason you think an auto is better is because you have one. Dont get me wrong the TH400 is probely the best or second best slushbox ever made (Rivaled only by the C6), but i have seen automatics grenade when used hard, with a stick shift you'll lose a clutch first, which is better then losing the whole tranny.

for me, with a 26% grade of a driveway, when I pull into my drive off the road it's in second. I head up the drive and it downshifts to first. Than, the trailer starts to load the truck, it slows and the converter starts its magic and it starts up the hill. You can be at a dead stop, 14,000# on the motor, push the pedal to the floor, converter starts working and it starts moving again. No low-range or anything. It's not magic, it's not nursing the clutch. Its the converter.

Its not the converter. Its the low end torque of that 6.2L letting itself be known. I gurantee with my 78 Ford with the T18 i could do the same thing from a dead stop, the only time i would be at a disadvantage is if we both started up that hill in second gear, cause your auto can downshift to 1st on a roll, my 4sp cant (unless i get lucky), in that case ill floor it, open the secondaries, and that old 400 will grunt its way up the hill.

With an automatic you dont really get full lugging abilty of the engine. Its really limited by the holding power of the fluid, clutch packs etc. With a stick shift its limited by the clutch, but i trust a clutch to grab more then a fluid coupling.

Also, to set the record straight, the M5OD does not have the lowest ratio of all 5sp trannys in rangers, the TK5 does with a 3.96 1st.

Truthfully, i think O/D in worthless in a work truck. Your not supposed to pull anything in that gear and if your using the truck the way it was ment to be used then you dont use that gear anyways and most O/D autos are weaker then there 3spcounterparts.

later
Dustin

 

[Nipplechops]

My Super 18 Eaton on my big truck has a 19.7:1 in first low to 0.73:1 in OD. The truck has 4.33 gears, plus the low range in the transfer case. That is what you need, a full size 18 spd, with low gears and a transfer.

A Ford V6 backed by an Eaton Fuller would be sweet! HAHAHAHA! That transmission probably weighs half as much as the truck does!

I am afraid that I rarely tow a 100,000lb load though. I tend to try and stay at or below 7500lb. I'd be happy with a sub 6:1 first gear and a much more clutch friendly reverse ratio.