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Any engineers or engineering students here?


Jim Oaks

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I don't want that to happen to me.
 


dirtraider

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jim if you want, give me the specs on the stuff you want to test and i'll run it though Ansys for you...its a FEA program that can test more things that you could ever imagine.

Plus i have an easy semester and could use the brush up on the modeling
 

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dirtraider, what kind of analysis would you be doing? i've never used Ansys, but I do have a lot of experience with Algor. Would you try to model the actual impact, i.e. throw a solid cylinder into the tube? I've never done impact loading with an FEA program though.

I'm gonna go play with Algor now.....
 

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Eh keep it simple, maybe to a compression on a tube, then a point load bending, fixed ends see what the deformation comes out to be, stuff like that. If he wanted to get real fancy tell me all the angles locations of the suspension components he wants and toss it in as a basic model...
 

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JohnnyU

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I'm not sure if this is Krug's line of reasoning, but it would be my assumption so; 5G is basically, 5x the weight of the truck. If its weight is 4000lb, then 5G would effectively be 20,000lb

I hate British units,
In SI units:
(1800kg) * (9.81m/s^2) = 17650N

5G = 5 * (17650N) = 88,250N

88,250N * (0.22lbf/N) = 20,000lbf


Ok, I did it right. :thefinger:


Simple answer: Multiply your scale 'weight' by 5.
 

MAKG

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I'd question whether a 5G load is anywhere near sufficient for an impact. The thing that will break the suspension is not a gentle push, but a drop off a rock (or somesuch) directly onto the tube. This would seem to be a fairly likely possibility. Perhaps it can be mitigated with soft bushings? Skid plates?

Note that the impact force is a function of the suspension stiffness in the direction of impact. The stiffer it is, the more force it sees. Unless you somehow put a skid plate in the way so the scenario here is impossible.

I agree wholeheartedly that at least a back-of-the-envelope calculation is called for here prior to breaking stuff. Worst case analysis is absolutely engineering "best practice." FEA may be serious overkill here, but if it's easy, you might as well. But the rule of thumb for such calculations is to do what you can analytically. FEA is for things you couldn't possibly do on paper like stress analysis on an A380 or earthquake response of a base-isolated skyscraper.
 
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Jim Oaks

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jim if you want, give me the specs on the stuff you want to test and i'll run it though Ansys for you...its a FEA program that can test more things that you could ever imagine.

Plus i have an easy semester and could use the brush up on the modeling
What specs do you need/want? I don't know what FEA does so I don't know what to send you. Can you use any of the specs for tubing that I've already listed in this post?

Speaking of specs..............

I spent a couple hours online last night looking for yield strength of 4130 Chromoly. I don't want to use it. Just need to know the yield of it. I can find plenty of sites and forums that say 75,000psi. I can find ratings from 60,000 - 110,000psi. I can't actually find any tubing suppliers who list it at 75,000psi. I'm finding it hard to find companys at all with it but I know they're out there.
 

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Finite element analysis (FEA) is a way of calculating the dynamics, stresses, moments, and just about anything else you can come up with of any body (rigid or otherwise) on just about any grid. Including really nonuniform grids. It's extremely general and very powerful.

I once considered using the technique to calculate galaxy formation on a supercomputer. I decided it was too computationally expensive for that, compared to other methods available. It's commonly used to stress-analyze aircraft, bridges, and buildings, which often can't be done any other way due to irregular shapes and surfaces.

In some sense, FEA represents the "minimum" numerical error on a given computational grid. It is very important to understand that discreteness error is never zero, which means an equivalent analytic calculation is always preferable, if it is feasible. Analytic calculations do not have discreteness errors.
 

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5G's was a number I threw out there because it was one I've used in the past for suspension analysis with success. And by success, I mean we didn't break anything and our car handled well. It was an assumption used to analyze the suspension statically, not dynamically.

I've been thinking about how to analyze this tube landing on a rock without extensive FEA work. I was thinking about using an iterative solution. If you assume the truck is starting suspended in the air and it drops "X" feet onto rocks, you can calculate how fast the truck is going at the moment it hits the ground. Assume that the tube will deflect to it's max without exceeding yield stress. With that deflection, you can calculate the acceleration, and then the force on the link. Compare this force (Force1) to the force that it should actually takes to deflect the tube that much (Force 2). If Force1 is less than Force2, calculate a new displacement using Force1 and repeat using the new acceleration (and remember in the next iteration Force1 becomes Force2). This is just me thinking out loud, but the solution should eventually converge. The number of cycles would depend on how close you want to get. And Excel could do it too, with a little setup.

As for material properties, try www.matweb.com. A lot of FEA programs will already have a library of materials to use and you can also add your own. MatWeb is also the source for material specifications for a lot of FEA packages as well.
 
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Jim Oaks

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If I was designing a four-link for my truck, I would probably design that lower link for a 5G impact both for the truck standing on end (buckling) and the link hitting a rock (bending).
OK, so are you saying to calculate 5x's in to the weight that I'm using in my formulas? Say, using 6,250lbs in my buckling formula instead of 1,250lbs?

I understand the formula for deflection:

F = [(W)(L^3)]/[48(E)(I)]

Where:

W = Weight (force) on link
L = Length of link
E = Modulus of Elasticity (29,000,000)
I = Moment of Inertia

I can set the calculations up in Excel. I've been setting them up in there as I go to make doing new calculations easier.

Using deflection and accelleration, I don't understand what the formula would be for the suggesting you're making in that last post:

Assume that the tube will deflect to it's max without exceeding yield stress. With that deflection, you can calculate the acceleration, and then the force on the link. Compare this force (Force1) to the force that it should actually takes to deflect the tube that much (Force 2). If Force1 is less than Force2, calculate a new displacement using Force1 and repeat using the new acceleration (and remember in the next iteration Force1 becomes Force2).

What would the formula be for Will's suggestion:

As a matter of fact, I would be inclined to use impact resistance as me goal. Take a certain size and thickness tube and use your equations to make sure it will survive a 36" drop with a 2,000# load on it. If it can survive that, you can then try the other equations on it and I'll bet it would survive the rest of it.
What's the formula for:

If you assume the truck is starting suspended in the air and it drops "X" feet onto rocks, you can calculate how fast the truck is going at the moment it hits the ground.
 

Jim Oaks

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krugford

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When you're dropping the truck from a given height, all you are really looking to find is the force that that drop will exert on the beam. Using F=ma, to determine the Force, you need to know the mass (the weight you want to use) and the acceleration (change in velocity over a given time). It's the acceleration part that needs to be iteratively solved for a solution. As for the deflection, I'd say you can use the simply supported, centrally loaded beam equation for this one because of the (hopefully) small displacements compared to the length of the beam.

The equation is for max deflection is:

Ymax = (F(L^3))/(48EI)

Pretty much, you have to pick a starting point to get this iterative process rolling. The most logical point would be right before the beam reaches the yield point (max deflection). First you need to calculate the force required to acheive yield stress. To do this, solve the bending stress equation for the force:

Stress = Fl/4Z

F = (4*Z*(Yield Stress))/L

F = Force to reach yield stress
l = length of beam
Z = Section modulus (you have these)
Yield Stress = Yield Stress of the material you are using.

With that you can calculate the force (Force1) to reach max deflection. With that deflection (distance traveled) you know that you will slow from the freefall speed to zero in that distance. With a speed of "V", and a distance traveled of "D", the equation for acceleration is:

a = (Velocity at impact)^2/(2*distance traveled)

Where distance traveled = deflection of beam

Knowing the acceleration, you can calculate the force on the beam using F=ma. (Force 2)

Now, that Force came from an ASSUMED acceleration, with came from an ASSUMED displacement. You'll notice that if you take the final force, it will not be enough to make the beam reach a max deflection. What you need to do now is to take "Force2" and plug it back into the deflection equation, calculate a new deflection, a new acceleration, and yet another force and repeat this process until the final calculated force lines up with the inital force. (Force1~Force2). At this point, the solution will have converged and you'll notice that there will be very little difference in Force2 compared to Force1 for subsequent iterations.

Excel can do this easily using the it's built in solver. If you've never used the solver, it's easy. You just tell it what cell to compare to what cell, what their relationship should be, and which cell it can change to find a solution. Just tell it to find a solution where Force1 = Force2. Apply a couple of contraints, like they have to be positive numbers, etc and let it run.

Will's equation will be the same as mine, he just stated a height and weight on that corner of the truck. (Both sound reasonable) I'm not sure about the 36". Coming down from 3 feet and landing would be a very hard hit, but it's a good place to start. If you calculate the tubes out and they seem huge, you could maybe do some thinking about how high you'll actually drop in real life.

To calculate the velocity at impact from a certain height, you can use the potential and kinetic energy equations. I like to use the assumption that your potential energy at the top is equal to your kinetic energy at the bottom. so PE(at top) = KE (at bottom). PE = mgh KE = (mv^2)/2. Solving for velocity "v" gives you the equation:

v = sqrt(2gh)

Where:
v = velocity
g = gravitational constant
h = height off of ground

This will give you an impact velocity to use in the above iteration.

Remember to always work out the units along with the numbers to make sure you don't need any conversion factors in there. As a check, take the units that are associated with each number, put them through the equations just like you did with the numbers, cancel out as necessary, and you should come up with your desired units (i.e. "ft/s" for velocity).
 
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Jim Oaks

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I'm going to have to break this down..........

I know max deflection is going to tell me how much the tube is going to be displaced from the force applied. Am I to understand that I have to take a given tube and keep increasing the amount of force applied until I reach the tubes yield stress

Stress = Fl/4Z

and then use that weight/force as the F in the deflection formula?

Ymax = (F(L^3))/(48EI)

I used a 1.75x.25 wall tube and using that principal came up with a max deflection of .5317.

If I'm right so far, the .5317 is used for the distance in this formula:

a = (Velocity at impact)^2/(2*distance traveled)

If so, then I just need to figure out velocity to complete it.

my head hurts.........
 

Jim Oaks

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To calculate the velocity at impact from a certain height, you can use the potential and kinetic energy equations. I like to use the assumption that your potential energy at the top is equal to your kinetic energy at the bottom. so PE(at top) = KE (at bottom). PE = mgh KE = (mv^2)/2. Solving for velocity "v" gives you the equation:

v = sqrt(2gh)

Where:
v = velocity
g = gravitational constant
h = height off of ground

This will give you an impact velocity to use in the above iteration.
So is velocity for 3 feet 13.89ft/s?

a = (Velocity at impact)^2/(2*distance traveled)

a = (13.89^2)/(2*.5317)

a = (193.199 / 1.063)

a = 181.748

Knowing the acceleration, you can calculate the force on the beam using F=ma.
m = 1,250
a = 181.748

If this was all correct, the force from the 3 foot fall would be 227,185. Holy crap!

Of course....my math is probably all wrong.

Was h suppose to be feet or inches?

I have to be doing this wrong so far. The bigger the tube the lower the amount of deflection and the higher the accelleration.

I wonder how the military calculates for force when they drop vehicles by parachute?
 

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