Ammonia fueled Ranger project is now on the road

[Jason]

A Prius is "great" for driving from your suburban home
to the "Park & Ride" at the commuter train station.
Getting in one for a long highway trip? demonstration of stupidity.

I saw one with California plates on it the other day. Last month I saw one with Alaskan plates. At work i saw one with Texas plates. I live in Buffalo, NY. I am thinking they handle road trips just fine. I mean, Toyota only tested them to 500 thousand miles though, who knows what would happen if you tried to drive a Prius on a 40 mile commute. It'd probably explode around the 10 mile mark.

 

[MAKG]

Actually, Prii work just fine on the highway. It's the plug-in electrics that really don't. What might change that is a battery that can be fully charged in seconds instead of hours. That technology doesn't exist at the moment. This is where hydrogen fuel cells MIGHT help (but they aren't there yet either).

You won't get ridiculous high mileage like you do in the city, but they can road trip just fine.

The advantage to remote generation is that it's FAR more efficient to run one big generator than thousands of little ones that all have to go through warm-up phases and don't always get repaired or maintained. And the generation method can be just anything; it can even be shifted around dynamically.

As for commercial geothermal not existing, next time you're in northern California, visit a place called Geyserville. Or Mammoth Lakes.

 

[AllanD]

I forgot to put this in my last post. If power consumption is the problem with HHO, why would a Audio amp Capacitor not work? It stablizes a 1000W + amp and that is FAR more than the upto 30 amps HHO pulls? I mean if we were able to have power delivered that is stored, and uses very little power from the battery and charging system, then why not on any thing else? AllanD used a Capacitor to help with power to a transmitter and he had 4 heavy Duty Batteries and a 150amp alternator and stated that the Cap helped tremendously. So why not?

The problem with HHO run off of "onboard power" is that energy out can NEVER equal energy input.

This because of the simple truth that to Split water into
Hydrogen & Oxygen takes more energy than you'll
get by burning the hydrogen.

So it is completely irrelevant how much energy you pour into
it if it's always going to be at a 70% loss.

Do you get it yet?

You will ALWAYS pour more into it than you can get back

In principle it's like having a gas tank with a hole in it
the harder you try to pump it full the more fuel you will waste.

It's just that simple

Capacitors don't create energy, they can't, but they charge up when demand is low and dump it when demand is high, they are great for swallowing spikes
and filling in troughs, but they can no more power anything than they can support the weight of a car without a spring. Capacitors is nothing more than an electrical shock absorber.

"short term" energy storage delivery. I'm talking miliseconds here.

I saw one with California plates on it the other day. Last month I saw one with Alaskan plates. At work i saw one with Texas plates. I live in Buffalo, NY. I am thinking they handle road trips just fine. I mean, Toyota only tested them to 500 thousand miles though, who knows what would happen if you tried to drive a Prius on a 40 mile commute. It'd probably explode around the 10 mile mark.

You must work hard at it to be a complete freaking idiot...
Or are you being obtuse on purpose?

A Prius is great for getting city mileage on short trips where the electric motor can come into play, but on longer trips or even at highway speeds the battery runs out and you are running purely on the gasoline engine
and at that point the Prius isn't as good as MANY other moderatly efficient
NON-Hybreds.

Yeah they get better mileage than the upscale SUV (Escalade?) they
probably replaced, but are about on par with a midsized Volvo
on a long trip.

Yeah you can drive one long distances, but it isn't what they
are designed for or what they are best at.

MAKG,

you are also more hyped on furthering your agenda than actually READING what was said and responding to it.Instead you are reading what you WANT and responding to that.
And I have just caught you doing it...I didn't say Commercial Geothermal didn't exsist, anyone who has ever heard the name "Iceland" knows it does.

what I said was if you try to Develop it anywhere in the US you'll have the NIMBY's on your ass so fast you'd swear that god put NIMBY's up your ass via evolution..

Either that or Greenpeace will have a picket line out to protect some little plant that grows on the hot spring you want to want to drill into to tap for energy.

and don't tell me it hasn't happened or won't happen again.

even the most "Green" people on earth scream in outrage if you suggest doing something "green" next door to them.

You should heard the howls of protest when a local farmer put up a wind generator, the transplanted city people across the road from him complained that it ruined their unspoiled view of the countryside
But they conveniently forgot that they sued him over the smell from his cattle heard shortly after they moved in, so he literally didn't give a cow's ass what they wanted and SAID SO in the township meeting. (that farm has been there for ~200years their house is 2004 construction on property from the break up of another farm)
those same city assholes complained about the dust that got on their car from his harvesting his wheat.

NIMBY=Not In My Back Yard

They are everywhere!

And I didn't say remote generation wasn't more efficient
I said that people buying an electric car seem to FORGET
that the electricity has to come from SOMEWHERE.

I had someone berating me for heating with Oil and Coal
they seem to forget that if I had electric heat it would
heat my house LESS efficiently in addition to costing more.

Using heat directly as HEAT is actually quite efficient.
(more efficient than converting the heat to mechanical energy then to electrical energy THEN transmitting it t my house...)
and considering that BOTH my furnace and my coal stove
are "forced draft" there is actually very little heat loss.
(you can hold your hand against the coal stove chimney)

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[Jason]

A Prius is great for getting city mileage on short trips where the electric motor can come into play, but on longer trips or even at highway speeds the battery runs out and you are running purely on the gasoline engine
and at that point the Prius isn't as good as MANY other moderatly efficient
NON-Hybreds.




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You said is was stupidity to drive one on a long trip. I am no more being obtuse on purpose than you are being opinionated on purpose in that statement. You wrote it, it was wrong or mis-worded at best.

So is it also stupid to drive a Volvo on a long trip? The Prius WILL get over 35 mph on engine alone. I know this because I have driven one as a rental from Buffalo to North Carolina. I averaged 45 mpg on that trip. Even on a downhill slant, the Prius is charging the battery. Everytime you lift you right foot a bit, it charges.

 

[AllanD]

You said is was stupidity to drive one on a long trip. I am no more being obtuse on purpose than you are being opinionated on purpose in that statement. You wrote it, it was wrong or mis-worded at best.

So is it also stupid to drive a Volvo on a long trip? The Prius WILL get over 35 mph on engine alone. I know this because I have driven one as a rental from Buffalo to North Carolina. I averaged 45 mpg on that trip. Even on a downhill slant, the Prius is charging the battery. Everytime you lift you right foot a bit, it charges.

I know two people who bought a Prius.
BOTH of them commute 60+ miles EACH WAY with them.

NEITHER gets as good mileage as the run of the mill economy car they replaced with the Prius.

So for spending all that money they get less mileage?

If that doesn't entitle everyone who knows them to buy an "I'm with Stupid" T-shirt I don't know what would qualify.

"Stupid" in this case is buying something (expensive) because it sounds "cool"
and sounds "Green" without really anaylizing that using it for OTHER than it's
original purpose is actually FAR LESS "GREEN" than simply keeping the car they had which actually burned LESS GAS.

And the downstream effects of all those Prius Nickel Metal hydride batteries?

What I'm saying is that people are making major choices based on EMOTION rather than Logic & Reason, and frankly there is no other name for that other than "stupid"

you can Choose your Giirlfriend/Wife based on emotion.

You can Choose what color you want your car based on emotion.

you MUST Choose your transportation equipment based on actual USE.

"Green" isn't about the FORM of energy you use, it's more
about HOW MUCH energy you use.

simply cutting back on unnecissary trips or COMBINING trips is much more "Green".

that throwing away a perfectly functional vehicle that
still has remaining service life than replacing it with something
"more efficient", usually only SLIGHTLY more efficient and
then ONLY under limited circumstances that the purchaser won't
actually use, is STUPID.
Contest this all you like, but you'll just be banging your head
against stone cold fact.


Hey, I have a perfectly good 1998 Escort-SE 4dr with
which I routinely get 40mpg. How did I get it? the Previous
owner traded it in on a Toyota Prius and they are disappointed
that the Prius doesn't get mileage as good as the Escort did
commuting back and forth to New Jersey, "and it's so SMALL!".

I told them "No shit Sherlock!", I had recommended they
get a TDI Jetta.

My personal best with the Escort is 525miles on a 12gallon
tank of gas.... that's 43.75mpg! not bad for a car that's got
just over 200K miles on the odo with an automatic trans.


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[85_Ranger4x4]

So did they need something as small as an Escort? A Prius is quite a bit bigger than an Escort.

They have their purpose, and the people you refer to buying them and being disapointed about the hwy milage is just as bad as someone buying an Excursion and being stunned at the in town milage. The people bought for the wrong application, it has nothing to do with the vehicle.

If you want a really stupid vehicle with no real point that greenies are all excited about check out a Smart... a two cylinder, two seat street legal lawnmower that gets lower 40's on the highway... and less around town. Even looks like it has been in several wrecks when new.

Aside from the fun of wacking it, I wouldn't touch a newer VW with a 10' pole.

 

[Jason]

I was unaware that in your part of the country that 22k is alot of money for a MID SIZED car. If you have ever been IN a Prius you would know it is quite a bit roomier than an Escort. I also think that type of mileage out of a mid size is pretty darn good.

Also, the Prius is not overly light, as someone eluded to earlier. It is however one of the most aerodynamically efficient vehicles on the road.

I will agree though that buying a Prius and bailing out of another vehicle is stupid and economically it does not make sense to anyone that can do elementary math. You will not come out ahead getting rid of one vehicle to get another unless gas hits like 10 bucks a gallon, or you are commuting long distances in an H1 Hummer.

 

[AllanD]

IT's funny you should see the looks my Sister-in-law used to get driving the vehicle my brother bought her for their 15th anniversary... a Ford Excursion with the V10

people looked daggers at here around here, but out in wyoming nobody
gives it a second look.

Shes's actually gotten confused when leaving Sam's Club when presented with no less than FIVE Excursions the same silver color... (and several others in different colors)

Funny thing is that Excursion averaged 18.4mpg on the trip out to Wyoming.
which was on par for the average mileage achieved with the 4.0AWD Aerostar
it replaced.

Yeah, it's got a 40gallon fuel tank, but she fills only every 6 weeks
(if then) it's only ever driven to the other end of town (<10mile round trip)
to go to Sam's on the weekend and 3/4mile (round trip) twice a day to
take the kids (Four of them) to the school bus stop.

a Prius "Much bigger" Coulda fooled me from having sat in one.
Different, but to me just as cramped.
but there are very few vehicles that will corner like that Escort.
It's lowered 1.5" and I have 205/50-15 Eagle GA's on it, so in
the twisties you kinda forget how cramped you are.

Taller? certainly. rear seat leg room? possibly.
But I think a Prius looks (aerodynamically) like a turd.
Granted not as bad as my truck, but...

The smart? a friend commented: "Damn! a two seat electric chair!"

Drive one on the highway? Not me brother.

I'm putting my Saab 900 back together because it can get into the low 30's
if I drive it carefully. AND it can blow the doors off of a 5.0 mustang when
I care to... and a turbo-charged car is a real hoot at altitude.

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[reno]

AllanD Your Explanation explains it well about using a Capacitor, Thank you Sir.

 

[Jason]

The vector for most aerodynamic drag is the undercarriage. The Prius and others aren't my cup of tea, but I can afford gas no matter how high it goes. Some people like little econo cars. I'll stick with fun cars like a MX-5 turbo or Mazdaspeed 3.

 

[AllanD]

I think their complaint about the prius's lack of interior space was related to trunk room
I'll ask them (If I remember) next tme I see them.

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[WildSide]

Well I don't know how all you ultra morons got so far off topic but this test vehicle now has 2600 miles on it with no issues so far. Nox emissions are no worse than a gasoline fueled engine.

 

[AllanD]

It's a GIMMICK.

The Ammonia must come from somewhere which means making it.

It isn't any cheaper to make than any of dozens of others of "alternative storage means"

the simple fact is this, there is no "alternative fueled vehicle" that could be put in dealer showrooms TOMORROW that could replace petroleum fueled vehicles should congress unanimously outlaw petroleum fueled vehicles 15min from now.

the most optimistic HONEST alternative fueled vehicle maker won't claim that alternative fueled vehicles could replace as much as HALF of exsisting vehicles in less than ten years and twenty years is FAR more likely.

There is just too much infrastructure that must be built up to support it.

This is the case if insistance on Ethanol or Hydrogen fuels is maintained.

Butanol could be introduced as a substitute fuel either by itself
for nev vehicles that are planned by the major manufacturers
(Ford is planning a Multifueled butanol capable Gasoline direct injection of it's 3.5 engine for the 2009 or 2010 model year)

Butanol could also be sold in an 80% Butanol 20% gasoline mix
that will run in EXSISTING vehicles without modifications!
Except for for vehicles driven in colder parts of the country and during winter months.
and even then a small cylinder of propane to use for starter fluid could get vehicles started in cold conditions

It's not about the fact that gas stations aren't willing to install an additional tank and pump it's about the fact that the fuel and the facilities to make it in sufficient quantities simply doesn't exsist nor will it for another 10-15years.

It's about the simple fact that less than 5% of vehicles on the road NOW ten years after the first ones were introduced are capable of burning E80 fuel

Meanwhile
People whine about the price of gasoline and the "profits" the oil companies make but conveniently IGNORE that here in the US the federal government alone makes three times (in taxes) what Exxon does on a gallon of gasoline (REALLY you can look it up) and state taxes account for making TWICE the profit that Exxon makes.

so the proposal that the government Tax Exxon (and other oil companies more) is basically rediculous

It's hard to believe that press releases from liberal members of congress is REALITY not a skit from Monty Python.

Starting drilling NOW probably won't reduce the price of gasoline at the pump for the ten years the liberals "peter puffers" say it'll take, but NOT drilling will perpetuate the continuing price increases.


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[WildSide]

Kind of similar to what those said during the horse and buggy area don’t you think? While you sit there spouting off that it’s a gimmick Allen, this vehicle is on the road as proof of concept. Yes the fuel has to be produced - just as gasoline does, the numbers have been crunched by others showing that ammonia production would be the cheapest Infrastructure to set up even with carbon conversion technology included. Many will still want to whine and whine about such alternatives will cost more etc but the fact is that change is being made and it’s not going to revert so you might as well look forward instead of treading water.

 

[MAKG]

OK, you produce gasoline from carbon dioxide and water? Find ONE plant that does that.

That's what "gasoline is produced just like ammonia" means. It is a FALSE STATEMENT.

When you produce your "fuel" from its combustion products -- which you MUST do with ammonia or hydrogen -- it is wildly incorrect to call it a fuel at all. You WILL consume more fossil fuels than you would have just burning them in the first place.

And that comment about NOx being no more than gasoline, prove it. Nitrogen goes somewhere, and reducing NOx costs energy.

No, it's not a horse and buggy comment. It's a flying saucer comment.