Run on water and gas

[James Denton]

I think I have found something you will like look at this and let be know what you think,just trying to help all my friends out on here.

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com

[OilPatch197]

I would reeeaallllly like these products to work but unfortunately they probably don't.

The reasons they probably don't are as follows.

The hydrogen converter relies on the cars battery to supply current. As the battery drains and the voltage drops the car's voltage regulator will kick in extra coils in the car's alternator to create more current to charge the battery. This increases the altenators load on the car's engine.

Unfortunate the extra load on the engine will be far greater than the extra power created by the hydrogen. This is because of the following:

1. The electrically energy produced by the alterator is less than the energy drain on the engine.
2. Energy is again lost converting the electricity energy to chemical engery stored in the HHO.
3. Energy is again lost converting the chemical energy to mechanical energy when the Hydrogen is burnt.

As you can see there is a net energy loss at each stage and the system is draining energy from the car. Sad, but unfortunately true.

This can not work! because the law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant but cannot be recreated, although it may change forms, e.g. friction turns kinetic energy into thermal energy. In thermodynamics, the first law of thermodynamics is a statement of the conservation of energy for thermodynamic systems, and is the more encompassing version of the conservation of energy. In short, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.

[James Denton]

Like the reply----but I have to see for myself----hey I been wrong before,but I keep on going-Thank's again

[kunar]

Like the reply----but I have to see for myself----hey I been wrong before,but I keep on going-Thank's again

do a search, this has been covered here a couple times before. there's a certain few that will swear up and down that it wont work, and there's a few that would bet their life it does....

[94STXRanger]

I would reeeaallllly like these products to work but unfortunately they probably don't.

The reasons they probably don't are as follows.

The hydrogen converter relies on the cars battery to supply current. As the battery drains and the voltage drops the car's voltage regulator will kick in extra coils in the car's alternator to create more current to charge the battery. This increases the altenators load on the car's engine.

Unfortunate the extra load on the engine will be far greater than the extra power created by the hydrogen.

Wouldnt the alternator be producing the same amount of electricity as it did before? only differing as the speed of the engine changes? The electricity is mad in the alternator whether its used or not, at some point the regulator just stops letting the voltage to the battery raise. So The electricity would already be there.

And as i understood it the hydrogen only assists in making a more complete burn of the gasoline. Having that set up on there doesnt seem like it would be much different than having off road lights on or something similar. But thats just my thinking and im no scientist.

[Original_Ranger84]

You can run your car off of water but it has to be set up differently I think the image is not very clear at all.

I have a friend that gets around 50 mpgs out of his little 3 cylinder geo metro.

You put the water in the intake through an injector not mix it with the fuel otherwise it won't burn/ignite. The water will turn into a vapor and expand in the cylinder when the gas is ignited, water in gas form expands alot so it will force the piston down fastercause it expands more then the regular gas. That is where the power is gained and your gas mileage will go up. WWII planes did this at take off and stuff.

That kit looks like it is designed to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen then burn the gasses which is really hard and expensive , and not very efficeint at all.

[reno]

HEY!!! Those are the same exact plans my friend gave me a copy of, who wants a copy?

OilPatch, are really serious? I can take my trucks battery, and let it run all night producing hydrogen, and still have more than enough power left in the battery to start the truck. Have you not ever done this to remove rust? Making hydrogen is very old news, it is just being made more efficient now. And if you watch the video, the one on that site where you see the man with a torch, he is the inventor. He converted his car, it was on the local news, because he is\was a local trying to sell his water torches.

[Jason]

I would reeeaallllly like these products to work but unfortunately they probably don't.

The reasons they probably don't are as follows.

The hydrogen converter relies on the cars battery to supply current. As the battery drains and the voltage drops the car's voltage regulator will kick in extra coils in the car's alternator to create more current to charge the battery. This increases the altenators load on the car's engine.

Unfortunate the extra load on the engine will be far greater than the extra power created by the hydrogen. This is because of the following:

1. The electrically energy produced by the alterator is less than the energy drain on the engine.
2. Energy is again lost converting the electricity energy to chemical engery stored in the HHO.
3. Energy is again lost converting the chemical energy to mechanical energy when the Hydrogen is burnt.

As you can see there is a net energy loss at each stage and the system is draining energy from the car. Sad, but unfortunately true.

This can not work! because the law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant but cannot be recreated, although it may change forms, e.g. friction turns kinetic energy into thermal energy. In thermodynamics, the first law of thermodynamics is a statement of the conservation of energy for thermodynamic systems, and is the more encompassing version of the conservation of energy. In short, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.

Can you elaborate how this law can be applied using the other part of the system? The fuel being ignited and releasing energy. The system as a whole fits into the Law of Conservation since the car and the movement of such expels energy. So when the system as a whole is studied you will find that it fits. The car uses the balance of the energy and then some therefore no energy was recreated. It is only using a more efficient source of energy to fuel motion.

I have not seen this in a car personally but i have seen this type of setup running a torch on a co-workers deck. he is another "theorist" like some here and he jumped on this the second he heard about it years ago. Given the small size of what he built (12x12x12) and the fact that it was emitting a constant 6 inch flame, I would say it is plausible to build a system like this that could make a major difference in gasoline usage or even possibly, after much trial and error, power a car.

[94STXRanger]

Oilpatch didnt really prove a net loss. He showed that there is potential for loss, but no numbers on the loss, or numbers on the gain, so how can he say there is net loss?

[cocoasranger]

Jewelers have used torches with hydrogen generators for years for fine work. If you want large amounts of hydrogen do what they did during the civil war to generate hydrogen for observation balloons. Drop some zinc (or magnesium powder) into hydrochloric acid and large amounts of hydrogen are generated really fast. They could fill a large balloon in very little time with this method.They ran the resulting gas through a crude filter to remove impurities on it's way to the balloon.:icon_thumby:

You could probably use magnesium castings, etc. which are plentiful in scrapyards.

[reno]

I know once I have time to sit down and really study these plans, I figure it will be easier to put together than it looks. I still have to get over to my buddy's house and look at what he has, his might be simpler.

This one has an awful lot of Electronics to it, from what I have seen so far it has a window detector with a trigger, but the schematic shows it going to a connector which means I need to look at the other part of the print. I guess I should really print it out, probably be easier to read.

I will check with my friend ASAP, he is supposed to be building a test kit out of his plans and wants to use the Ranger as a test for 30 days. If it is done (I doubt it, he works like 12 - 14 hr days) I will post here as well. I believe, if anything, it will increase about 5mpg, that is me though.

[reno]

Jewelers have used torches with hydrogen generators for years for fine work. If you want large amounts of hydrogen do what they did during the civil war to generate hydrogen for observation balloons. Drop some zinc (or magnesium powder) into hydrochloric acid and large amounts of hydrogen are generated really fast. They could fill a large balloon in very little time with this method.They ran the resulting gas through a crude filter to remove impurities on it's way to the balloon.:icon_thumby:

You could probably use magnesium castings, etc. which are plentiful in scrapyards.


If ya did that, then you would have to compress it into a container, I would then suggest you carry a full bag of miracles with you. If that bag is empty, stay home, that much hydrogen being compressed would be worse than the Hindenburg disaster, you would essentially have a very large bomb installed to your vehicle, just waiting for a wreck.

[donlightbody]

using a pulse width modulator you can control how much current the generator draws. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfc_6Xx-SGQ&feature=related

also different designs and water mixtures draw different amounts. search for "hydrogen booster" on youtube for ALOT of info in this stuff. one reason it often apears not to work is because the O2 sensor is picking up on all that O in the exhaust and wants to richen the mixture. I've heard of some people removong th 02 sensor from the loop when the gen is on and found a vid of one guy who is intercepting and controling the O2 sensor's signal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzlGD6b1RW0
Also, someone on youtube w a BII 2.9 found to hook up the hydrogen line to the vacuum input in the back of the plenum instead of befor the throttlebody, thereby bypassing the engine control sensors. I think it works if you figure out all the tricks to it.

[lil red]

u think i could get a copy of those
sounds like a cool votech project
and if it works well
id do it on the ranger, mabe

[OilPatch197]

Oilpatch didnt really prove a net loss. He showed that there is potential for loss, but no numbers on the loss, or numbers on the gain, so how can he say there is net loss?

Putting additional load on the electrical system most definitely puts additional load on the engine. Your alternator is a reverse electric motor. When you draw more electricity, the alternator is harder to turn, which makes the engine work harder, which burns more fuel, obviously.


Remember, the Second Law of Thermodynamics? It hasn't been repealed. You can change one form of energy to another, but you can never achieve 100% efficiency.


The introduction of water into the fuel mix MAY increase the amount of energy that is extractable from the gasoline through chemical and/or physical interaction with the fuel air mixture.

You 'might' idle, but not enough power to drive let alone tow!

In other words: No one is selling or showing off these things has actually used it in a car? If they had, then we would actually see them starting and driving a car with one of these. They would certainly be putting those videos up.
And so far, I have not seen even one.

[Jason]

I appreciate that you have gone through the trouble to look things up and present a decent argument for your side of this debate. What bothers me is the repeated assertion that someone is "creating" or "transferring" energy. Nothing is being made in this process, it is only being brought from the water to the engine.

If we followed your logic then no car would run because the fuel pump and injector circuits would overrun the cars electrical system, rendering it undriveable. All these hydrogen converters do is "pump" the hydrogen and oxygen out of the water via an electrical current that separates the molecule, (not the atom as in nuclear fission) and requires very little energy. The process as i have seen with my own eyes for an outdoor lantern is more finesse than force. You need the proper current and pulse and it's working as long as it is built correctly.



Putting additional load on the electrical system most definitely puts additional load on the engine. Your alternator is a reverse electric motor. When you draw more electricity, the alternator is harder to turn, which makes the engine work harder, which burns more fuel, obviously.


Remember, the Second Law of Thermodynamics? It hasn't been repealed. You can change one form of energy to another, but you can never achieve 100% efficiency.


The introduction of water into the fuel mix MAY increase the amount of energy that is extractable from the gasoline through chemical and/or physical interaction with the fuel air mixture.

You 'might' idle, but not enough power to drive let alone tow!

In other words: No one is selling or showing off these things has actually used it in a car? If they had, then we would actually see them starting and driving a car with one of these. They would certainly be putting those videos up.
And so far, I have not seen even one.

[OilPatch197]

So can you get more energy out of pumping the solution to the engine than the equivalent power consumption to run the water/gas system? Like you said it needs to be set right.

It has to be to make your car more efficient. Also figuring in how *much* of a gain the water will make, if nominal then take out the power losses of the water/gas system.... will it even be worth the conversion?


If we followed your logic then no car would run because the fuel pump and injector circuits would overrun the cars electrical system, rendering it undriveable.

The volatility of Gasoline contains somewhere around 131 megajoules per gallon. You can have a very inefficient engine, and it will still run. It has high energy content.

Therefore if in mix in the water/gas system, the question is can you get your system efficient enough to cancel out the increased inefficientcies(increased alternator drag)

Maybe I am nit picking, Yeah perhaps.

Again I would have to see a "homebrew" job to believe it. Whoever does this, post a video on utube! I would like to see it start and drive it off.

[James Denton]

When I get the CD on this-----You can count on me putting 3 on I'm going too put it on 3 diffence ones -1 on carb engine ---2 on fuel injection-3 on a diesel------I start with 1,2 then 3----I will let you all know how it goes

[94STXRanger]

I never did read the whole article presented but have seen others, and the ones i have seen use the small watar container and seperate the hydrogen and introduce it to the system. Thats what some ladies husband did at my work on his integra. Im not sure what kind of wattage it takes for the electrolysis, but i would think that getting the fuel to burn more completely and getting ten more miles per gallon has to be an improvement.

[donlightbody]

I was curious about the complexity of making the generator, and I made one today just from crap in my workshop. PVS, 2 bolts, nuts, washers and some sheet metal. hooked it up to a battery and it was making hydrogen alright. made quite a bit and this was not from good parts either. if anyone is really interested in this stuff look on youtube, there is alot there.

[samsonitesamsonite]

I was very skeptical about this too, I have done TONS of research, and helped a friend put it on his mustang, we are now building a system for my YJ, and my wifes car. The minimum gain that I saw was a 20% increase in mileage, Not only that, it has more pep and runs quieter. After some fine tuning he is getting between 30% and 40% increases in mileage.

I was sure it was just another snake oil scam at first, but I wanted to try it out for myself. It works.

[BigClemsonFan]

I was very skeptical about this too, I have done TONS of research, and helped a friend put it on his mustang, we are now building a system for my YJ, and my wifes car. The minimum gain that I saw was a 20% increase in mileage, Not only that, it has more pep and runs quieter. After some fine tuning he is getting between 30% and 40% increases in mileage.

I was sure it was just another snake oil scam at first, but I wanted to try it out for myself. It works.

How difficult was it to install? Total cost of the install?

[samsonitesamsonite]

including the book which was $50... it was about $160, but you can spend as much as you want on them, the more you spend the better it looks.... Install was not hard, ill find a site for you hold on...


edit.... here (http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/)

I also have the water4gas book in PDF format if anyone wants a copy.

[94STXRanger]

I was very skeptical about this too, I have done TONS of research, and helped a friend put it on his mustang, we are now building a system for my YJ, and my wifes car. The minimum gain that I saw was a 20% increase in mileage, Not only that, it has more pep and runs quieter. After some fine tuning he is getting between 30% and 40% increases in mileage.

I was sure it was just another snake oil scam at first, but I wanted to try it out for myself. It works.

Now oilpatch how is that ^ a net loss?

[IcecreamLtDan]

I also have the water4gas book in PDF format if anyone wants a copy.

I'd be interested in a copy. I'm interested in maybe trying this on my old ranger. It's not a daily driver anymore and I could certainly experiment with it on this.

[Loanranger]

There's alot of posts on this subject, but has anybody thought of the two things that might make this work? The first being the most obvious, making it a duel fuel system running gas (or alcohol) AND the hydrogen? The secong being less obvious, but being right in tune with current technology, and that is to use the battery and charging system of a hybrid, therefore generating power while braking? This would relieve some of the stress from the alternator, making it a more efficient means of creating hydrogen.

[AllanD]

Wouldnt the alternator be producing the same amount of electricity as it did before? only differing as the speed of the engine changes? The electricity is mad in the alternator whether its used or not, at some point the regulator just stops letting the voltage to the battery raise. So The electricity would already be there.

And as i understood it the hydrogen only assists in making a more complete burn of the gasoline. Having that set up on there doesnt seem like it would be much different than having off road lights on or something similar. But thats just my thinking and im no scientist.

1)Gasoline is MOSTLY hydrogen already, Look up the word HYDRO-carbon.

2)The alternator is NOT "making the electricity anyway".
It only makes what is REQUIRED to maintain the set voltage level.
ANY increase on load pulls the voltage down and the regulator
turns it back up.

Even turning on a light bulb draws power, that power MUST come from somewhere.

Do you believe in perpetual motion?
You put the water in the intake through an injector not mix it with the fuel otherwise it won't burn/ignite. The water will turn into a vapor and expand in the cylinder when the gas is ignited, water in gas form expands alot so it will force the piston down fastercause it expands more then the regular gas. That is where the power is gained and your gas mileage will go up. WWII planes did this at take off and stuff.


Actually water injection depends on two things to make an engine "more efficient" (and yes it works)

First it acts as an anti detnonant because the energy that propagates the shock wave is instead spent heating the water molecules.
Water has an incredible coefficient of expansion when it's heated
into steam, so a small ammount of INTENTIONALLY introduced water "helps" the engine. (It also tends to strip carbon deposits out of the combustion chambers)

If you REALLY think about it your GASOLINE engine is REALLY powered bt "steam" anyway
As you burn HYDROcarbons there is hydrogen in the gasoline
which burns into water, the Carbon (ideally) burns to CO2
the heat generated heats the 70odd percent of nitrogen in the air and that expands too. But the expansion of highly heated water gas (steam) is the real "muscle" pushing the pistons which turns the wheels...

using a pulse width modulator you can control how much current the generator draws. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfc_6Xx-SGQ&feature=related

also different designs and water mixtures draw different amounts. search for "hydrogen booster" on youtube for ALOT of info in this stuff. one reason it often apears not to work is because the O2 sensor is picking up on all that O in the exhaust and wants to richen the mixture. I've heard of some people removong th 02 sensor from the loop when the gen is on and found a vid of one guy who is intercepting and controling the O2 sensor's signal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzlGD6b1RW0
Also, someone on youtube w a BII 2.9 found to hook up the hydrogen line to the vacuum input in the back of the plenum instead of befor the throttlebody, thereby bypassing the engine control sensors. I think it works if you figure out all the tricks to it.

Excuses. it doesn't work because it doesn't work, NOT because the oxygen sensor is detecting surplus oxygen.
Mixture is simply adjusted like it would be at lower altitude.and LOAD has far more to do with mileage than mixture does anyway.

You cannot produce enough hydrogen to matter with a 12V alternator. to pack around the equivelent energy of a gallon of gasoline in LIQUID hydrogen would take several gallons
Several gallons of liquid hydrogen in GAS form would fill an average sized house

If we followed your logic then no car would run because the fuel pump and injector circuits would overrun the cars electrical system, rendering it undriveable. All these hydrogen converters do is "pump" the hydrogen and oxygen out of the water via an electrical current that separates the molecule, (not the atom as in nuclear fission) and requires very little energy. The process as i have seen with my own eyes for an outdoor lantern is more finesse than force. You need the proper current and pulse and it's working as long as it is built correctly.

a fuel pump draws a few amps and MOVES and energetic fuel from it's storage tank into the injection rail.
At the injection rail the fuel pressure regulator DUMPS most of this fuel back to the tank via the return line

the TINY ammount of fuel actually injected into the engine produces ENORMOUS energy and most of the combustion product is either WATER (the HYDROGEN from the hydrocarbon fuel)
and Carbon Dioxide (if combustion is complete) and Carbon Monoxide (if it isn't)

The energy released is quite large.

What everyone who believes in these "snake oil devices" is FAILING to pay attention to is that in the original creation of the water enormous energy was released, even ignoring efficiencies ALL of that energy (and then some) must be put back in to split those molecules apart into hydrogen and oxygen.
and all you can hope to get back is the energy released by combusting Hydrogen with oxygen.

THAT is the simple reality.

Stupidity pisses me off and this whole topic is stupid.
and even though arguing with a retard on the internet is like winning a race in the special olympics (you might win but you are still retarded) I'm still arguing against you because stupidity has been shown to be contagious among the ignorant.

It is my JOB to erase ignorance whenever I can.

Anyone not with me in this fight is against me.

[metalmacguyver]

Keep it up Allen!

[Jason]

How about this. Instead of having a bunch of google geniuses, why doesn't someone pony up the cash and prove if it works or not. Someone here must have a pre-OBDII truck to test it on for the group. Don;t tell us about a friend that did it, show us some video of it running in a truck or car.

[Loanranger]

How about this. Instead of having a bunch of google geniuses, why doesn't someone pony up the cash and prove if it works or not. Someone here must have a pre-OBDII truck to test it on for the group. Don;t tell us about a friend that did it, show us some video of it running in a truck or car.

How about this? Go for it! :icon_idea: If you haven't noticed, this is a forum for discussing ideas, which is exactly what is happening. People with the enginuity to make something like this happen aren't sitting here on the computer discussing whether it can be done or not, they are out proving it can be done. I am not saying it can or can't be done, but nobody is going to go out and do it, just to show a few people on TRS that it can be done.


Think about how many FACTS have been disproven by people who don't listen to everybody saying "it can't be done". Think about where we would be today if the great inventors of the past had listened to all the nay sayers and given up. To all the people willing to learn all they can, and sort the truth from the lies. :pray:

And to all the folks who sit on here and tell everyone it can't be done, without actually trying for themselves. :thefinger:

[philzilla]

Lets install this system, put wings on our trucks and fly to the moon, after all the space shuttle uses hydrogen and oxygen for fuel, so its got to work !

lets go offroading on the moon ! ill put together a parts list we'll need to get there,
a battery
a bucket of water
2 electrods
some hoses
card board for the wings
A REALLY BIG RAMP and........:3gears:

[Jason]

How about this? Go for it! :icon_idea: If you haven't noticed, this is a forum for discussing ideas, which is exactly what is happening.
Yeah, uh, I noticed. I noticed the same 4 people discussing it in thread after thread after thread. And then the next thread. I have witnessed the absolute misuse of countless words and more googling than the entire SUNY system uses in a year.

I have seen it all, except the ability of one side or another to prove anything besides that they will keep throwing the same things out into each thread they see on this topic.

Hey mods? Why not merge the threads and make one big clusterf#ck instead of many many small ones?

[89REDRANGER]

A friend and I are working on a system similar to this just for shits and grins. Right now we are rounding up parts and tools to build our system. We don't have intentions of it working or proving anybody right or wrong. We just wanna see for ourselves.

Just something we saw online, thought it was an interesting concept (even though we even have our doubts), and decided to build.

After all the parts and tools are rounded up (if we even get that far without the A.D.D. kicking in), I will post a full on thread of the build-up, testing, and all that.

[krugford]

Yeah, uh, I noticed. I noticed the same 4 people discussing it in thread after thread after thread. And then the next thread. I have witnessed the absolute misuse of countless words and more googling than the entire SUNY system uses in a year.

I have seen it all, except the ability of one side or another to prove anything besides that they will keep throwing the same things out into each thread they see on this topic.

Hey mods? Why not merge the threads and make one big clusterf#ck instead of many many small ones?

Want to know what I've seen? I've seen the same GD thread come up over and over again because people have a distinct inability to use the search function on a public forum. I, myself, have asked for MATHEMATICAL proof that this concept works from the people who claim it does. They can't provide it because it violates the laws of BASIC physics. Of course, you could ask the reverse of me, but I'm not the one trying to pass off BS as a miracle cure to getting better mileage, nor am I trying to sell you a kit or instructions build one of these things.

I will, however, try to get you to learn the material for yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Engineering-Thermodynamics-Michael-Moran/dp/0471274712/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215129389&sr=1-6

[James Denton]

I have got 2 sets of the plates built to go in 2 new units----i'm still testing them to see how they going to check out.Still trying to get the amps worked out on it.You have to do and redo to get it all to go together-But I get it figured out.

[James Denton]

Going to try to install one of the units this week -----if things go right-:nopityA::icon_thumby:


Krugford-------I will be gald to let you know how it does-----

[James Denton]

Put i unit on my van-2-unit when on my friends S10 TRUCK,got the units on ,we will get them wired up sometime monday,and try them out and see what happens.:clapping::clapping:

[James Denton]

They on and running -little more tunning and we will see what happen.Had bad strom here knot AC OUT and all appliances in the house hit two big pine trees in the yard.The good thing no one got hurt.

[philzilla]

i would like to see how much of a difference it didn't make

[James Denton]

i would like to see how much of a difference it didn't make

Hadn't got all my figures together at this time will have when I get the storm damage replace----But the way it looks right now it going to be the differences ---(IT HAS MADE)-It runs better and with more power and that's no BS--you might want to try it for yourself--(you be gald you did)

[windsordeath]

Can we see some pics of the install?

[James Denton]

Can we see some pics of the install?

My pictures are in a KODAK EASYSHARE-------HOW DO i PUT THEM ON HERE
need help:yahoo:

[James Denton]

Still could useds some help with pictures.Both trucks running good Have gas mileage in a few days.Been a member here sinces 2003 ---November 2004 Street Truck of the month-have a lot of friends here and anyone that know me ---knows I will tell you if it will work or not and that's know BS-

[superdave1984]

Still could useds some help with pictures.Both trucks running good Have gas mileage in a few days.Been a member here sinces 2003 ---September 2003 Street Truck of the month-have a lot of friends here and anyone that know me ---knows I will tell you if it will work or not and that's know BS-

Far be it from em to question your integrity, but it says right there under your name "Join date August 2007"

[James Denton]

Far be it from em to question your integrity, but it says right there under your name "Join date August 2007"

This is not the first sever for the TRS site it has change a few times-August 2007 is when I joined this site----November 2004 street Truck Of The Month---Where were you in 2003 I was with the TRS

[superdave1984]

This is not the first sever for the TRS site it has change a few times-August 2007 is when I joined this site----SEPTEMBER 2003 street Truck Of The Month---Where were you in 2003 I was with the TRS

I was busy getting my degree back then. Sorry for the error. I just call em like I see em.

[James Denton]

I was busy getting my degree back then. Sorry for the error. I just call em like I see em.

Sorry to--- it was Novmber 2004 when I won street truck of the month 1984 Ranger -I had the wrong date so got it right now-but been wher sinces 2003

www.cardomain.com/ride/200357

[James Denton]

Some of you might want to check this site out----the ones I built are a little diffence from this,but this is a great design-AND THIS DESIGN IS FREE--FREE

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com

[Bryan22]

So, what were your results? any gain in milage?

[James Denton]

I going to try to have everyone sum gas mileage reports by the week end.mine will be on a 81 Ford van 300 6cly this will all be city mileage. My buddy is going to try to get his check out to 88 S10 350 V8----So I guess we all have to wait and see how it comes out.Can't wait can you

[James Denton]

GAS- MILEAGE -IS -IN-4 more miles to the gallon -----YES THAT----WHAT--I--SAID 81 Ford van 300 6 cly- yes it has a carburetor--(no fuel injection) This truck was run short trips 55-60 mile a hour drove in the country and city I think it did great.-------TO the ones that had told me that this want work ---need to build there own and don't listen to what other people say.Most people spend most Of there time trying to find out why something want work, but never find out if it will work or not---I have never understood that-I spend most of my time to see if it will work or not ------But that's the way I do things.If anyone has any questions about how I built this unit I be gald to tell you.Help you out anyway I can------AND MY HELP IS FREE----wE ALL NEED TO TRY TO FIND A WAY TO GET THE GAS PRICES DOWN

[James Denton]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/fy549/100_0892.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/fy549/100_0897_1.jpg
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/fy549/100_0898_1.jpg
Here's a picture of the unit-hope you like it

[MAKG]

GAS- MILEAGE -IS -IN-4 more miles to the gallon -----YES THAT----WHAT--I--SAID 81 Ford van 300 6 cly- yes it has a carburetor--(no fuel injection) This truck was run short trips 55-60 mile a hour drove in the country and city I think it did great.-------TO the ones that had told me that this want work ---need to build there own and don't listen to what other people say.Most people spend most Of there time trying to find out why something want work, but never find out if it will work or not---I have never understood that-I spend most of my time to see if it will work or not ------But that's the way I do things.If anyone has any questions about how I built this unit I be gald to tell you.Help you out anyway I can------AND MY HELP IS FREE----wE ALL NEED TO TRY TO FIND A WAY TO GET THE GAS PRICES DOWN

Those are some extremely strong conclusions from extremely sloppy methodology.

A carbureted 300 I-6 ought to benefit from a somewhat warmer intake manifold, for example, due to well-known improved evaporation effects. ANY way of heating the manifold works, such as repairing the always-stuck heat risers.

An HONEST researcher does not take conclusions further than the data supports.

And tell us, what's your control?

You are claiming you actually built a perpetual motion machine.

As for this "you have to try it" bullshit, I will unequivocably guarantee that you cannot fly without an aircraft (whether lighter than or heavier than air). You can try it if you want, but I'll suggest that you pay attention to basic physics instead.

So tell us also, what was your ACTUAL mileage measurement? I can get a 5 MPG increase out of my Chevy by timing it correctly....

I spend most of my time designing systems that actually work. Not building unprovable prototypes.

[James Denton]

MAKG-------I know what it will do -I don't have to guess anymore I see it for myself----so I'm gald to have your replys on this thread..It don't brother me what you say because you think it want work and I know it will. So We Don't Think A Like That's OK.Or I like to forgot the Actural Mileage Measurement you wanted ---OK the gas line was un hook from the gas tank.I run the gas line in a gallon jug without the hho unit on----the van gets 10 miles to the gallon--is what it check out to be--I put other gallon of gas in the jug and turn on the hho with that gallon of gas it got 14 miles to the gallon------Now in my figures that comes out to be 4 more miles to the gallon----or is it a other way that when you add 10 + 4 =14----I guess I could add wrong there to. .YOU think I did

[krugford]

I think it's a little early in the morning for you to be forming coherent sentences isn't it?

Proper MPG measurement means you fill the tank, drive for a few hundred miles, record the number of miles you drove, refill the tank, and divide miles driven by the amount of fuel needed to top the tank off again. Then repeat so you can get a running average of your vehicles mileage. Different days (temperatures, head winds, city vs highway driving, how much of a hurry you're in) will result in different fuel economy levels. Your methodology is going to have so much scatter in your measurments that I would argue that your mileage actually decreased with the HHO system on.

You didn't add wrong, you just have no insight into how to properly measure your vehicles fuel economy. This is where all the proof comes from that people will post as gospel in the internet as "proof" that this stuff works. It doesn't.

[James Denton]

I'm just a old country boy---That's the way we do things around here -This was tryed a number of times with the gallon of gas. This truck is not drove on long trips it's a work van and drove short trips. mileage check -city- highway this is city and country driving What it all comes down to is-----we going to have people to belive in this --and we going to have people that don't ---so to the ones that don't that's there right---:nopityA:---and two the ones that does ---that our right-:icon_surprised:So it up to the way you want to go.-----The --TRUE---is seeing and I know what it will do and .If I can help any of the ones that belive in this I will be gald to.--The faxs are out gas mileage-- and all,you belive or you don't it's up to you.-------I'll still be getting my 4 more miles to the gallon anyway. :D

[thegoat4]

I'm just a old country boy---That's the way we do things around here -This was tryed a number of times with the gallon of gas. This truck is not drove on long trips it's a work van and drove short trips. mileage check -city- highway this is city and country driving What it all comes down to is-----we going to have people to belive in this --and we going to have people that don't ---so to the ones that don't that's there right---:nopityA:---and two the ones that does ---that our right-:icon_surprised:So it up to the way you want to go.-----The --TRUE---is seeing and I know what it will do and .If I can help any of the ones that belive in this I will be gald to.--The faxs are out gas mileage-- and all,you belive or you don't it's up to you.-------I'll still be getting my 4 more miles to the gallon anyway. :D

What?

[James Denton]

What----that's right I just tell it like it is.When you build your own you will have no question----if it works or not.When you have it and see it works that's all that matters.

[MAKG]

James, though EPA doesn't go as old as yours, a 4.9L 6cyl E150 van gets an EPA rating of 13 MPG for the worst configuration (3spd auto) in 1985, with a carburetor. With a manual, it's 16 MPG. So, you are probably NOT getting the mileage you should be from the factory, with your modification, and you certainly weren't without it.

EPA estimates tend to be LOW. I can routinely beat them with minimal effort.

I think you made an "accidental repair." Or your measurement is so inaccurate that you really do get EPA mileage without the mod.

[gotmudd]

What----that's right I just tell it like it is.When you build your own you will have no question----if it works or not.When you have it and see it works that's all that matters.

ok, one country boy to another, check your grammer and learn how to spell. oh, and by the way, he may come across as arrogant in the way he talks to people, but Makg has a bullshit detector that can smell bullshit a mile away. if it smells like bull, he will call it, and i respect him for that. hell, i can make water burn by dumping 3oz. of airline antifreeze into a plastic gallon of water, will it increase my MPG, don't know. what i do know is that like everyone has pointed out, your methodology for testing your theory is off base. you need to run a tank of gas without your unit hooked up and record your miles driven. then fill it up again, hook you unit up an run that tank of gas through and record your milage and how many gallons were used versus miles driven. :idiot: :thefinger: :thefinger: :tease:

[James Denton]

Gald again to have all the replys----but somehow all I still here is what I should do--It's like this I know what it does and I don't have to guess what it does-------I see mine-----how many have you built ---and check out for your self------That's right 0 -----that's what I seen.I don't do my testing on here say----or what I been told want work ---I build my on so I can see.I just tell it the way it is.SO it goes back to what people think--- it will------and people think it-- want-----It's up to you ---I heard the same time when I built the 4bbl intake for my 2.8 but it is in the tech library-under 2.8 JSD Performance 4bbl intake I was told it wouldn't work -but it did -what everyone else said don't matter to me,check this out http://www.youtube.com/EletrikRide

LOOK UNDER ---This is for the naysayers

[gotmudd]

Gald again to have all the replys----but somehow all I still here is what I should do--It's like this I know what it does and I don't have to guess what it does-------I see mine-----how many have you built ---and check out for your self------That's right 0 -----that's what I seen.I don't do my testing on here say----or what I been told want work ---I build my on so I can see.I just tell it the way it is.SO it goes back to what people think--- it will------and people think it-- want-----It's up to you ---I heard the same time when I built the 4bbl intake for my 2.8 but it is in the tech library-under 2.8 JSD Performance 4bbl intake I was told it would work -but it did -what everyone else said don't matter to me,check this out http://www.youtube.com/EletrikRide

LOOK UNDER ---This is for the naysayersdude you crack me up,:icon_rofl: ;missingteeth; i'm sitting here LMFAO, trying to decipher your posts. you write like a foreign exchange student who took his first hit of crack and forgot the proper order of english.

[James Denton]

gotmudd----lets see IF you can decipher this ----IT WORKS ---IT WORKS ---iS that in Plain English----is it any part--- of that you can't understand.
ARE you a Foreign exchange English or spelling teacher or something.:

[gotmudd]

gotmudd----lets see IF you can decipher this ----IT WORKS ---IT WORKS ---iS that in Plain English----is it any part--- of that you can't understand.
ARE you a Foreign exchange English or spelling teacher or something.:ok, here's something i do understand, first: you have tested it by using one gallon of gas as your control, groovy, that's not the same as running with a full tank of gas. :icon_rofl: :icon_rofl: :buttkick:
second: when you run a test you have to have a control , in other words verify the ACTUAL m.p.g of vehicle driven on reg. gas, [full tank, don't be cheap, that's why we call bullshit, not enough proof] then do your test with the machine you built[ again don't cheap out use a full tank of gas] when you can bring us those numbers then we will listen. :c-n:

[James Denton]

#1---I built this unit----#2--I did the testing my way----#3---this is the way I wanted IT tested---#4--What gives anyone here the right to tell me how I should tests my own design---#5 .It was all done my way and the way I wanted it,--#6--- If You want to check your on full tank of gas that's find with me-build it and let us all know how it comes out.


WE all be waiting for your gas mileage.----Have A Nices Day :pray:

[fastpakr]

They are telling you how to test it because the testing you have done so far is MEANINGLESS. If you refuse to follow any scientific methodology whatsoever to test your claims, you come across as nothing more than a quack that everyone would rather ignore.

[krugford]

Also keep in mind that your posts could be construed as proof that this thing works by somebody who may not be experienced enough to know the difference. And the fact that your vehicle doesn't exactly get stellar mileage compared to what it should in the first place...

[James Denton]

They are telling you how to test it because the testing you have done so far is MEANINGLESS. If you refuse to follow any scientific methodology whatsoever to test your claims, you come across as nothing more than a quack that everyone would rather ignore.

DON' see how my test is Meaningless---
I don't see anyone here that is telling me how to test mine-that has built one them self-so to me what you are saying is MEANINGLESS--All I here is check it this way or that way---It's A EASY THING TO DO BUILD IT-----and then I'll be gald to to put mine up to any you build and we test it anyway you want to. ----Until then think what you want-----So in my book the ones that keep running it down --- don't know what they are talking about

-------I'M GOING TO IGNORE THEM

[James Denton]

---OK----CAN'T wait to here all the Scientific Methodology :bsflag:
van idle at 600 RPM without the unit turn on----the hho line runs into the top of the air cleaner FROM THE GEN. when it turn on the engine speeds up a other 150-200 RPM'S---I had to idle it back down---it runs smooth and with more power.I just tell it like it is.

[krugford]

So the engine had to respond to an additional load on the engine. By "more power" you mean your engine is producing more power at idle to compensate for the increase in load caused by the HHO system.

Have you even tried to understand the physics underlying what you think you've done? All it would take is a little effort on your part to do some reading, maybe buy a textbook, take a class, etc.

[James Denton]

Like to Help anyone here ---that would like to build ----It's know need for me to keep-going round and round---with the ones that don't think it works you going to have it your way it don't matter what I say.:nopityA:Like I keep saying----Build it and then see for yourself.It takes a lot more effort to get up and do it than it does reading or thinking ,and telling someone what to do or how to do it.it YOU CAN'T BUILD ONE LET SOMEONE BUILD IT FOR YOU


BUILD IT AND THEN TELL ME i'M WRONG---:icon_surprised::icon_surprised:.

[superdave1984]

So the engine had to respond to an additional load on the engine. By "more power" you mean your engine is producing more power at idle to compensate for the increase in load caused by the HHO system.

Have you even tried to understand the physics underlying what you think you've done? All it would take is a little effort on your part to do some reading, maybe buy a textbook, take a class, etc.

Actually the load on the engine is minimal. About like turning the headlights on. These things only need a few amps to create the reaction. I'm not saying the thing does what he or anybody else says, just pointing out a fact.

[lifted4.0]

over on jeep forum, a guy is running a simple mason jar on a 87 yj i think, and he went from 15 mpg to 26 mpg..i dont place that is the B.S. side or the truth side, i put it in the middle...seems to be if people say they are getting an increase, either they want to screw with people, or they are just trying to spead what they have done..

hearing of all these savings, makes me want to build my own, it will work..ill be happy, or it will not work, and ill be happy that i tried it..and can say i put my head to good use unlike some people that are just arguing on here..im going for the real life example, thats how im gonna learn it.

[James Denton]

over on jeep forum, a guy is running a simple mason jar on a 87 yj i think, and he went from 15 mpg to 26 mpg..i dont place that is the B.S. side or the truth side, i put it in the middle...seems to be if people say they are getting an increase, either they want to screw with people, or they are just trying to spead what they have done..

hearing of all these savings, makes me want to build my own, it will work..ill be happy, or it will not work, and ill be happy that i tried it..and can say i put my head to good use unlike some people that are just arguing on here..im going for the real life example, thats how im gonna learn it.

Thank's alot --:icon_thumby:---I'm gald to here from someone that wants to build his own and see what it does.And you are right THE REAL LIFE EXAMPLE that's how we going to learn it.not from reading books-BUILD IT AND SEE IT WORK---need any help from me just send me a pm------Happy building

[James Denton]

Gas mileage that's all I heard---here's the mileage-started 9618----end 9775 157 miles----14.2 gallons to fill it up----that's without hho on
started--9775----end 9971--196 miles fill up--14.4 gallons-with hho on--and that's no BS----:icon_cheers:-I'ii leave it up to you to see what the number is :3gears::3gears:still running great------

[James Denton]

This HHO Hydrogen Generator -----You may also apply for a tax credit
Form-8911-----it's funny don't you think they say it want work--- But you can get a tax credit.:icon_thumby:

[MAKG]

This HHO Hydrogen Generator -----You may also apply for a tax credit
Form-8911-----it's funny don't you think they say it want work--- But you can get a tax credit.:icon_thumby:

HAHAHAHAHAHA

That's a credit for "alternative fuel refueling property." That is, infrastructure to dispense and store the fuel. That means you get to try to deduct your garden hose.

And STILL go to prison for tax fraud.

Because it also lists what alternative fuels are. Water isn't one of them. 85% of it has to be hydrogen (or whatever). Water contains quite a lot less than that, and even if it didnt, no one would believe it. The point of this is to support legitimate production of hydrogen for refueling, not this scam.

Dude, you need a professional tax preparer or you're going to end up in the Federal pen.

[James Denton]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

That's a credit for "alternative fuel refueling property." That is, infrastructure to dispense and store the fuel. That means you get to try to deduct your garden hose.

And STILL go to prison for tax fraud.

Because it also lists what alternative fuels are. Water isn't one of them. 85% of it has to be hydrogen (or whatever). Water contains quite a lot less than that, and even if it didnt, no one would believe it. The point of this is to support legitimate production of hydrogen for refueling, not this scam.

Dude, you need a professional tax preparer or you're going to end up in the Federal pen.

I have a professional Bradley's Tax Service---FOr OVER 30 YEARS---I know what I can do I think you better get you A professional---they handle by painting business account-I can see right off you don't know what you talking about----Dude

[MAKG]

Well, at least I can read.

You MEANT to say Form 8910, which is an alternatively fueled vehicle credit.

But you're still wrong, since it very clearly is intended to apply to actual hydrogen (and other alternative) fueled vehicles, and hybrids. Yours is not a hydrogen fueled vehicle. It's gasoline.

[thantil]

gasoline,hydrogen and oxygen- buya

[James Denton]

I'M going to let my tax professional,handle it.My Work van is both---Hydrogen and gasoline

[thantil]

James Denton Are you having any issues with Leaks?
I can not seem to stop leaks from top.
Tom Antil

[James Denton]

I had some the start with but I run it a little I tight the cap some more,I done this about 3 times and all the leaks stoped.

[thantil]

I am going with a different top soon but till then I must stop leaks.Oh well
New top is a compression top so I must eliminate threaded end

[thantil]

96 ranger extended cab here 2.3l

[James Denton]

Have adjusted the electrolyte to one and 1/4 ts----from 3/4 ts I had the start with----gas mileage is getting better all the time :3gears: :icon_cheers:

[krugford]

And.....this one's for you..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qKcJF4fOPs

[thegoat4]

Have adjusted the electrolyte to one and 1/4 ts----from 3/4 ts I had the start with----gas mileage is getting better all the time :3gears: :icon_cheers:

Can you quantify how much better?