What have they done to the forest?

[James Morse]

Thread wandering, but about sewers:
A few years ago the city put in new storm drains and came down in between me an my neighbor. They dug up his property, it's just over the line from mine. My sewer runs into his line (I have easement) before that line runs into the actual sewer line. I knew the path because when we moved in the house had been empty a while and the old iron sewer pipe was rusted so much inside it drained slow and finally backed up and I had a guy dig it up and replace that section (found it with camera). I don't mind plumbing work but when it comes to a 4' deep hole, no thanks. So that fix was good, and I told the storm drain contractors, there's a sewer line right where you are digging across (they dig like 6' deep for the large storm drains and put crushed rock under the pipes). Later I go out and ask them and they're like, nope, didn't see anything, must be deeper (I knew that's not true).

My drain still worked. It seemed like maybe it was getting a little slow, but nothing terrible. Then after a couple weeks my neighbor comes over and says, hey look at this. "I smelled poop, so I thought maybe my dog pooped near the house and went to clean it up, and when I stepped here, I sunk in up to my knees. It's all soft here." It's because my sewer was draining for weeks into the new dig, and finally had created a swamp of mud/sewer. So I call the city and tell them they need to get out here and fix this. Nothing. Call again. Nothing. This goes on for a couple weeks. Finally I'm like, this ain't right, and I call DEC (state environmental) and tell them there is sewer bubbling up to the surface, and the next day there are guys out there in hazmat suits and a big truck and they dig the whole mess up and cart it away. So that finally got fixed. Drains are fine, it takes the washer dump no problem, which is what we always used as the test for clear drain when I worked plumber's assistant.

Here's a question for you plumber guys. As I said, no problem draining. But ever since I've been here, we get a lot of gurgling. I know that when water drains, it sucks air with it. That's why you don't attach the washer drain tight to its drain, air has to get in. But when stuff drains, it sucks on the other drains, you get gurgling, and, if it's sucking enough it can, I believe, suck the water out oft he p-traps then you get sewer smell - this seems not a big issue (doesn't happen, or not much - maybe more than I think according to my other half) but something isn't right. We used to say "that means it's draining" but really it gets old. I have a theory that the vent (yes I see a vent on the roof) is plugged so it's not venting. I have no idea how one could clean that vent out / check it. I think you get the idea of what's happening. It can potentially be a problem - you don't get things backing up into bathtub etc like you would with a clog, but, the rather powerful suction pulls things one way then lets go (like, rebound) and you can, maybe, get a little p-trap water coming up into the kitchen sink then draining (not backing up, just the violence of the draining and suction) and that would be not desirable at all.

And I think, that all that vibrating of their equipment and the pack-down thing loosened soil around a tree I had, wind came through, knocked it over, took out the power lines, broke a phone pole, power was out for over a day. Then they left the old pole broken there, struggled for years to get that taken down, finally got that done, different story. Geesh.

I'd like to get the plumbing working like normal plumbing. It shouldn't make all this gurgling if it is vented, right? Lived with it 10 years, would like to set it right.

 

[CorbinsRanger]

They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum *
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

 

[RonD]

Not a plumber but all the drains in a house will have roof vent pipes connected
Can be one larger vent for multiple drains, like this: https://biegplumbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/318799.image0_.jpg

Or smaller vent for a few drains, like this: https://www.bhg.com/thmb/yrZsjnZ_tW...6fe98bed-a3fbe89aa95f45b0a98754e849ad13fa.jpg

It really depends on cost and connecting to the drains
Houses will have "wet walls" where water pipes run and drains are run along with the vent to the roof
If these are on opposite sides of a house then separate vents
If you do an addition to a house that includes a "wet wall" then usually a separate vent as well

General "rule of thumb" for vent size is based on drain size
If you have a 3" drain pipe that gets "water" from several smaller drains in that area of the house then you need a 3" main vent
There can/will be 1.5" to 2" side vents for specific sinks, toilets and drains connected to the 3" main vent

"Gurgling" may mean a roof vent is partially blocked, and its creating enough negative pressure to pull water out of P-traps


And washing machine drain is not a tight fit to allow air in, its just because it makes it easier to DIY hook up any brand of washer, just stick the washer hose in the larger drain pipe
Washer drain should have a vent just like all the other drains

 

[James Morse]

My plumbing is very simple. Only one bath (old house). So you have tub, bathroom sink, and kitchen sink, and toilet, that's it for drains. You can see all the plumbing in the basement. Some is that old lead drain and some is replaced with plastic line. Anyway, it could hardly be simpler.

The washer drain (basement), about that, I may have conflated two things, because it always overflowed so I taped it shut and that didn't help. Finally, I read (or maybe somebody here told me) where code says the drain for the washer has to be, I think, 36" high, and once I raised it up high per code, it drains fine. I didn't have to tape it shut, it doesn't overflow at all. So maybe it's the raising up of it that's important. Although with vent plugged taping might be a problem. Anyway, there's a p-trap for it, and it's working fine.

Toilet drains into a big iron pipe, it goes through the basement wall and out, and tub and sinks drain into a different smaller pipe, also goes through wall so they must both hook into the sewer line just downstream (underground). I'd say that has nothing to do with the issue, just mentioning it.

I looked in the attic and I see big iron pipe going up through the roof, it is right behind the toilet so I am thinking that's the vent and I suppose it should operate for both the drain pipes going out even though it's not directly connected to the sink/tub drains. I guess that would make sense.

I'm wondering, if I tried to back flush it from the roof, is there a possibility that gravity will make the water come out the drains inside the house if it's plugged which certainly seems to be the situation. Ack. Will call plumber if it comes to that. Been dealing with it 10 years and I'm thinking it's probably fixable but I don't want to make a worse problem. I imagine if you were able to see down in there, which I doubt, you will find debris and rust and I am betting it's just totally clogged and probably jetting would clear it or maybe even just water from a hose then hopefully that debris doesn't clog the main drain. It'd be nice if I had a really long stick I could poke in there.

Mine looks like the second simpler picture if you minus off the "revent" and add kitchen sink then it would be the entirety of my drains. Not counting the French floor drains in the basement which aren't connected.

I don't have wet walls because it's one story and all the feeds come right up from the basement. I have other feeds for outside spigots and for the washer and boiler (not really a boiler per se, it's radiators) but you can get to everything from the full unfinished basement so it's easy to work on most things.

 

[superj]

i would say you have a clogged vent. climb on the roof and send your water hose down the vent and you might be able to clear it. if the hose doesn't push it through, you need to get a half inch snake or a 3/4" snake and it will push the clog.

 

[DILLARD000]

They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum *
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

 

[James Morse]

I can see the vent going up from the basement and I see where the toilet T's into it (vent and main drain are one and the same pipe). So even if the vent pipe filled with water then suddenly the clog let go, in theory it all should go down the drain. Some might try to come up into the toilet, but I guess that's not a huge deal. It wouldn't likely come up the other drains since they are separate and hook into the main drain outside the basement as I noted.

People want $60 just to come look at it and give a price. I'm not jumping on that yet. I have a local guy who I've dealt with, might try him. But he's got only one leg so not sure about going up on the roof.
I myself am about ready to go up there, just not sure if it's real smart at almost 69 years old here but if I could free it up myself I sure don't want to pay somebody hundreds of dollars. I mean, I don't begrudge good pay for good work, but I try to avoid rip offs. I'll pay people sometimes just to free up my time (like the Lexus work) even if I can do it. The thing is, in my mind I'm seeing it as like ten minutes of work. Does it even matter if they are a plumber? Anything in there once unstuck should fit through and go down. All I'm saying there is, it'd be really bad if crap cleared form the vent then lodged in the main drain, then I probably would be paying somebody for sure.

It's been like this since we moved here in '13. It'd be really nice to get it working. That's on me it took this long to address it.

 

[RonD]

Yes, Vent and Main drain are the same pipe, should be the same size as well

I do wiring so have Fish Tapes on hand, maybe you have a friend that has one you can borrow

Just a length of steel "tape" on a reel, usually 50ft to 200ft lengths, often easier to work with than Plumber's snake on a roof
You can spin it around to clear debris
Then as said rinse out the vent with water, no it shouldn't "overflow" anywhere unless its clogged below one of the other side vents, which is why you should run the fish tape down first to loosen any clogs
Have a towel on hand to clean the fish tape and hose as you pull either out, because whats at the bottom of the vent is the SEWER pipe, lol

 

[superj]

don't run water into your vent from the top, it will come out of anywhere you don't have a good seal. just see if the hose can knock whatever is in there, free.

if you fill it with water, you will find out how good the bowl wax is under the toilet, you will fill the bathroom sink next to the toilet because they are usually ran above grade through the wall to the toilet vent and the tub or shower will also fill since its probably on the same drain as the toilet.

and if the drywall guys accidentally stuck a screw or nail through the vent, you will find that too and ruin your wall.

 

[James Morse]

Ah, just using the hose as a plunger/sticker. Thanks for telling me before I ran water in it per Google posts.

As I mentioned, sinks/tub drain into a separate probably 2" line that goes thru the basement wall next to the main drain so it must Y into the main line underground just outside the basement wall (or inside it, but I doubt that).
So the sinks/tub don't go into the vented main line inside the house at all. For what that's worth.

They will have a hard time sticking anything through it because it is that black iron pipe. Maybe it's thinner than the stuff going down but it looks the same.
Also it is inches away from the wall on the bath side, the other wall enclosing it is the back wall of a bedroom closet so not real worried about drywall work.
And to mention, there's no drywall anyway, it's all lath and plaster. Much better in my opinion for reducing noise carry room to room. I don't know why they stopped doing that - slow I guess plus you have to be skilled to make a nice straight smooth finished wall (and ceiling!) because it's all by hand and that is one heck of a lot of plaster in an entire house.

Some rooms have drywall ceilings because when they retrofit the a/c and cut holes for the vents in the ceilings it weakened the structure and the plaster started falling down and it would be prohibitively expensive to re-plaster the lath. I did it (replaster the ceiling lath) in rooms with minor damage, but some ceilings were literally falling down. It's all fixed now they did that plus new roofs on the house and shop as part of the hurricane insurance a few years ago. Even though it didn't have anything to do with it, they did all the work for nothing which was like 30k or so all told. The roof guys were great, the interior guys sucked so I ended up doing most of the inside myself, but I got paid for it plus materials. Got pretty good at plastering and discovered that if you ever hire someone to do plaster work and ask them "where's your hawk?" and they ask what is a hawk then you need somebody else.

Thanks very much for the tips and info and I will proceed accordingly whether I do it or get a jack of all trades; I don't think I need a plumber. I do have a long tape I used it to clear a drain one time it has like a screw spring on the end that grabs stuff so you can pull it out. A stiff piece of insulated wire with the carrier cable might work. Anything you can stick in there, that won't end up dropping in.

 

[James Morse]

Could also try shop vac it has 8' hose, if stuff was at the top it might grab it out.
I have some long lengths of that 3-wire insulated cable you run in the house, that's quite stiff it could work too to poke down in there.
There is no side vents.

 

[James Morse]

Goin' fishin'. This is really stiff wire but if the hooks caught on something you could bend them out. I have a very long piece way longer than needed. Anaconda 10/2 w/ground. I believe it came from some deconstruction work I did 15 years ago.

 

[RonD]

As I mentioned, sinks/tub drain into a separate probably 2" line that goes thru the basement wall next to the main drain so it must Y into the main line underground just outside the basement wall (or inside it, but I doubt that).
So the sinks/tub don't go into the vented main line inside the house at all. For what that's worth.

These will also have to be tied into the main vent or have a separate vent

Seen here: https://images0.plumbersstock.com/content/how-to-vent-toilet-shower-sink-700x425-min.jpg


Yes, the Vent pipes in the wall can bow the drywall where there are "T" fittings, I redid our Master bath last year and ran into that
2x4 construction has 3.5" between dry wall the "T's" can be just over 3.5" if using 3" pipe, ain't much but can cause issues

Wife wanted a bigger mirror over the sink, went to mount it/glue it to the wall(old mirror was hung on the wall) and it wouldn't sit flush at all 4 corners, wall was bowed out in the center just a little bit, didn't even notice when sanding and painting
Thought about building a frame for it, wife nixed that plan, lol, researched bendable glass, not much available
Had to cut out the drywall around the bowed area to get mirror to sit flush
I guess the next poor ba$tard with a nagging wife will find that hole, lol

 

[James Morse]

OK. I don't have vents for the 2 sinks, they'd have to have a pipe coming off the top of the drain near the sinks and I have to say I have never seen such a thing personally.

The problem is the pulling-down of the sinks' or tub p-traps water is caused by two things, the toilet, and the washer, and both those things are vented because they tie directly to the large main drain which is the vertical vent pipe as well. Those two items dump a lot of water all at once, while the sinks can only run at what, maybe 2 gal/minute or something, so they do not cause the problem. Technically they are vented because if there's air in the main drain then where the sinks/tub tie into the main is vented. Anyway, it's the dumping of a lot of water all at once that causes the suction which if properly vented should not happen.

I suppose you could fill the kitchen sink (which we normally don't) and dump it and see if you got any issues, but I think even if it's not vented it probably is fine (time will tell).

As to the bowing, you have to just work with what you have, right? Sometimes the only solution isn't elegant but if it gets the job done then it's good.

 

[Eddo Rogue]

I have come to the conclusion, that EVERYTHING is way different than 50 years ago.

Damn it!

"The pool hall that I loved as kid, is now a seven eleven" - Social Distortion ("Story of my life")