To all Mechanics

[OilPatch197]

No thanks,

I'd rather have clean air to breathe, clean water to drink and safe vehicles to drive.

You should too. Safety should not and is not optional.

Interesting response, can you answer me this question:

You say Safety is NOT optional, so are you willing to give up essential liberties(like habeas corpus, draconian drug laws, and guilty until proven innocent) to obtain a little safety?

Where do you draw the line? Are you Ok with mandatory seat belt usage? Anti-Clunker Legislation?(!!!)

Bent bolt, I WILL not own a vehicle that has air bags, does that make me dangerous in your veiw?

 

[red85]

mike,the flathead lives.there are shops that still build them,and better than original.

Motor City Flatheads builds a killer flattie. Put a set of Ardun heads on it with an old GMC blower and they really are legitimate hot rods.

Mike's right though, our cars have changed dramatically. Mostly for the better. Sure sensors can give trouble, but Shop Key and Mitchell on Demand provide excellent "trouble trees" for finding the trouble.

 

[Bent Bolt]

Interesting response, can you answer me this question:

You say Safety is NOT optional, so are you willing to give up essential liberties(like habeas corpus, draconian drug laws, and guilty until proven innocent) to obtain a little safety?

What the hell does that have to do with wanting safe clean vehicles ??

I bet you'd want a airbag in front of you before your head hits the steering wheel if you were to smash into a car at 100 kph. You deny it right now, but if you were in that situation, $100 says you'd want it.

 

[thegoat4]

I don't agree.

With noises, of course one goes straight for the physical inspection. With DRIVEABILITY, the very first thing you do is run the self tests. That's what they are there for! And in 30 seconds you can have a clue. If not, THEN you go to the labor intensive symptom checks. But they are VERY often nonspecific.

I do see a problem with people not knowing how to troubleshoot, but it's FAR different from running PCM self tests. It's jumping to conclusions. Got a miss? It must be a plugged injector. Poor idle? It's the TPS. Lean code? It must be an oxygen sensor. And so on.

I think the OP was getting more at the "mechanics" who get completely stalled out if they can't communicate with the computer. I think that is a legitimate problem.

I try to be a good mechanic and use all the tools available to me and I troubleshoot with a computer just about every day. But when some off-brand truck shows up (which is very common in our shop) I can still narrow down a problem without throwing parts at it. But, yeah, doing without takes a lot longer that running a test with the laptop.

As far as the rebuilding goes, yeah, it's a pretty tragic waste of materials. I've long thought our shop should set a separate labor rate for parts rebuilds so they'd be practical to the customers. But the trade-off there is that a mechanic working at the cheap rebuild rate isn't working at the higher shop rate and profits take a hit.

But with the way the economy is going (and accelerating) I would not be surprised to see parts prices rise (and labor rates fall) enough to make rebuilds common again.

 

[05level2]

I don't agree.

With noises, of course one goes straight for the physical inspection. With DRIVEABILITY, the very first thing you do is run the self tests. That's what they are there for! And in 30 seconds you can have a clue. If not, THEN you go to the labor intensive symptom checks. But they are VERY often nonspecific.

I do see a problem with people not knowing how to troubleshoot, but it's FAR different from running PCM self tests. It's jumping to conclusions. Got a miss? It must be a plugged injector. Poor idle? It's the TPS. Lean code? It must be an oxygen sensor. And so on.

X2


Times have changed guys, go with the flow

 

[OilPatch197]

What the hell does that have to do with wanting safe clean vehicles ??

I bet you'd want a airbag in front of you before your head hits the steering wheel if you were to smash into a car at 100 kph. You deny it right now, but if you were in that situation, $100 says you'd want it.

First off the speed limit is 55mph, I'm a law abiding citizen, and I don't drive on the interstates, and IF I did smash into a car, I would be responsible for ME, and if I was at blame, which shouldn't happen since I have a well maintained vehicle, but if I was at blame, I would take responsiblity for those I have hit as well. I was hoping to logically debate with you, but the bottom line is you refuse to answer my questions, and I do not approve of the role of Government to force what they say down my throat.

 

[Bent Bolt]

You say Safety is NOT optional, so are you willing to give up essential liberties(like habeas corpus, draconian drug laws, and guilty until proven innocent) to obtain a little safety?

You tell me.

Show me something that says you will give up " guilty until proven innocent" for airbags and ABS in a vehicle ??

I don't know where you're from but up here 110 kph is the speed limit on most 4 lane highways. Thats almost 70 MPH for you. I'll take the airbags any day.

 

[Bent Bolt]

First off the speed limit is 55mph, I'm a law abiding citizen, and I don't drive on the interstates, and IF I did smash into a car, I would be responsible for ME, and if I was at blame, which shouldn't happen since I have a well maintained vehicle, but if I was at blame, I would take responsiblity for those I have hit as well. I was hoping to logically debate with you, but the bottom line is you refuse to answer my questions, and I do not approve of the role of Government to force what they say down my throat.

For the most part, the government ( mostly the US gov, Canada follows ) mandates the safety improvements due to the private sector ( car companies ) cutting corners for profit. As well as John Q Public not being able to drive a vehicle within their skill level. THATS why there is ABS and air bags on every new vehicle. And traction/ stability control will be mandated soon too.

Getting back to the topic on hand, it's going to be the technician that understands how all these systems work and operate that will make the money and customer happy.

That tech will be me and others like me. Highly skilled and paid.

 

[LearjetMinako]

I remember the old days when wrenches & gauges were the tools of the trade. Now its computers, wrenches, ohm meter, voltmeters, etc. As a mechanic, I strive to become more knowledgeble in my job. I know better than to reach for the PCM scan tool when thers no "check engine" light. Even if there was, the code is not always right and could be something else that would cause it. But it brings you closer to the true problem. I've pulled apart an alternator before, along with many other things. I work on my KLX motorcycle nearly every 3 weeks. And the only thing on it thats even a computer is the mapped ignition. Every thing else is carbs & parts.

The government will & always shove new things for the consumer & mechanics. And their response will always be, "its for the better". The only time when things cross the line, is when they take control away from the driver. ESC (Electronic Stabilty Control) is okay since it assist the driver rather than take away. ABS is 50/50 on my list. I like it when its needed, but there are times when I do not need it to work. Air bags, always a nice feature, just hope it works when the "one" time comes.

 

[Shoeboy]

Well, I'm a second year apprentice technician, Greg (good name by the way, us Greg's need to stick together!). I think in the last month I have had to use the scanner about 4 or 5 times, but it was mostly just to check the code for a starting point, or to turn the mil light off. I agree with you completely that people now a days are all about computers and "Oh, well can't you just plug it into your computer and have it tell you what the problem is?". If it really was that easy, I wouldn't be needing to go to school and buy the ten of thousands of dollars worth of tools. People today hear that a vehicle has 40 computers and they all of a sudden believe that the computers are there and are all knowing and will tell you anything you need to know, just like their PC. The truth is that the computers in cars are very limited to what they can do. Another thing I love hearing from clients is "well the check engine light turned on, and someone told me that when it turns on its always the O2 sensors". I think I have changed 10 in the last 3 years, if that. I hardly ever scan the computer because I know how limited it can be. In some cases it can be a life saver.

As for the replacing parts and not repairing them anymore. With the cost of parts today, its a lot more cost and time effective to just replace the unit as a whole, instead of taking it apart and repairing it. If I can buy a remanufactured alternator for $180, and replace the unit as a whole instead of buying the rebuild kit for $30, and the hour and a half labor to rebuild it, it only ends up being quite comparable in replacing the entire unit, as compared to rebuilding the unit. Also with the remanufactured components, the shop gets a warranty on the unit, that they can pass onto the customer, so if the component fails, the shop is reimbursed from the manufacturing company for the labor time lost, while with a rebuild kit, if the component fails, the shop has to come clean for all of it, excluding the cost in parts, but because there is reasonable doubt in the technicians ability to rebuild the part the manufacture company wont warranty the labor on the time time lost. With how cheap parts are now, its just more convenient for everyone to replace then to rebuild.

 

[Simple_serf]

See, my problem is that I don't like to spend $20K or more on a car. Therefore, what I drive is used...sometimes very used. What happens when modern cars get to be 20 years old? Those of us who are still driving them can't always easily get the sensors, etc that are needed. I went through this mess before.

I have no doubt that there are good techs out there...I had one who was willing to help me with my mazda...over 25 hours of work to get it to idle and run without stalling. And good old NYS who banned me from putting a weber on it (It would have ended up running cleaner with a weber on it). That damn feedback carb and computer system was never right and when it needed to be fixed only one place in this area could hook up to it. Biggest improvement was turning it into a non-feedback carb.

I just don't like having to splice wires and fix plugs every time I work on the car...ever see how brittle this stuff gets?

Add to that every piece of equipment that I have been around that uses computer control in an ag/industrial environment has continuous electronic problems and those who use mechanical systems don't.

example: moisture in control solenoids for a genset vs moisture on control board for a genset. The old system can usually be fixed with a can of water displacer and a points file (or at most, replacing the control solenoids for $20 each). Or replacing the control board (if you can find one) for $400. If you can't find one, then trying to rig up something to work (like trying to make a Dyna-gen or a Gencontrol box work). Which one do you think is cheaper (and easier) for me to fix?

As to longeveity...In most apps that I see, the mechanicals are about the same, although the old stuff isn't disposable when it finally does crap out, whereas the newer stuff can't be rebuilt. I see alot of Ford 300's, 460's and even a 2.5 (carbed), old Onan engines, etc (Not to mention the DD's, Cummins, and Onan Diesels) that I know of with at least 5000 hrs on them and no mechanical problems. The newer stuff is usually junked before then because the electronics fail, and it's cheaper to replace the whole thing. If the mechanicals fail it is usually because of faulty installation (Forget the rain cap?) or a chronic problem (like leaking intake gaskets on the GM V6's).

I think the reason I like the older stuff is because much of it is still running after 50+ years, and NOTHING built since the 80's lasts for more than 10 years around here unless it is based on an older design.

As to the bodies....I do like the newer alloys and composites that don't rot out after 2 years.

Don't get me started on ABS, Airbags (I'm a short dude..a friend of mine was almost killed because she had to sit close to the wheel ot get the clutch in...the response was she should have purchased an automatic), and Electronic Stability Control. They SHOULD NOT BE MANDATED! If I want them I'll buy a car with tme....If not, I SHOULD be able to get a car without them.

 

[gbadgley]

HOLY CRAP!!! I didn't think I would stir up this large of a hornets nest.

My main point is this, If you look through a lot of threads (here as well as other sites) there is too much dependency on "codes". "Tail lights dont work, I couldn't get a code, what's wrong" things like that. ANYONE working on anything needs a basic understanding of how it works before they even try to make a repair.
MAKG, Drivability covers a lot of ground, Will the soft tire that causes a pull (drivability problem) show up? But if you have a basic understanding and listen to what the customer tells you you have a sense of where to start LOOKING.
As I said yes there is a place for scan tools, but it seems to me like many have become over dependent on them and either are not willing to, or do not know how to look for problems.
Replacing some parts with rebuilt DOES make economic sense some times, but you should also be able to determine what caused the failure, it could be a symtom and not the actual problem.
Safety is safety, there is no price that can be put on that, There is how ever one major part of safety that is 100% free - COMMON SENSE!!! Greg

 

[MAKG]

Yes, you make valid points. I make the same ones about modification.

I see no harm in using codes where they exist. But I do agree; there is harm in stopping there.

The really bad part (IMO) is when someone probes an OBD-II for codes, gets a lean code (for example), and immediatley goes after all the oxygen sensors (up to four!) when the problem was actually a popped off vacuum line that can be fixed for free with a utility knife and 10 seconds. Or maybe a bit better with $5 in new vacuum line....

I don't think I've seen anyone look for codes for exterior lighting. Transmission problems, sure.

 

[fordwheelinman]

Let me start by saying that I have been pulling wrenches for over 35 years now, but Is it me or have a lot of the newer so called mechanics have no clue how to troubleshoot any more? I have read posts where there is an obvious mechanical problem such as a vibration and what is the FIRST thing they do? Lets see what the COMPUTER says!!
Don't get me wrong there are indeed times when you need to hook up and check things out, but I have never seen a fault code for the LF wheel about to fall off. It almost seems to me like they want to have a machine do all the work, what happened to using your head to figure things out.
I know much of it can be blamed on the way things are done now, I can remember when WE repaired alternators & starters, I doubt many of today's "Mechanics" have even had one apart let alone rebuild one. We seem to be "Parts changers" today.
OK, I done for now, Thanks. Greg

Well, I'm 20 years old, second year technical school student, and been working in the field professionally for a year and a half. The ONLY time i grab for the scan tool is when i have an indicator light lite up (CEL, ABS, Air Bag). I have diagnosed everything from locked up motors, electric locks not working, hard brake pedal, to drive line vibrations simply from what i know, and what i see in front of me. I understand that your not talking about all of us "younguns", but do know that some of us are smarter than the average parts changer. Also, those guys dont last long when the same car comes back 5 times, the last 4 of which are free from improper repair.

 

[Mutant Pony]

I've been a Mechanic for about 28 years. I've been a Michigan certified mechanic for 25 years. In Michigan you have to be certified to work on a motor vehicle for profit. I have 9 of the 8 certifications required to be a Master. The 9th being "pre '73 motor vehicles". I learned how to work on cars in a junk yard. I had NO test equipment and no money for new parts. I then went to college for Auto mechanics when I turned 18.
I've worked on everything from model Ts to 2005+ cars and trucks. I prefer to work on vehicles from the late sixties to early seventies. Although I don't miss points at all. Give me a magnetic pickup distributor and a carburetor and I'm happy.
I don't get to work on things that I want to very often at work so, I'm forced to work on this new CRAP.
Anybody that thinks this new crap is more dependable doesn't have their head screwed on straight. Probably the same guy that thinks what the factory recommends is best. Ridiculous!!!!
No, I don't know everything about cars. That is not possible. There are to many variations. Sometimes I find it very hard to diagnose a problem on the internet, If I can't see, hear, smell, or feel it I can't fix it. All I can do is offer a suggestion. And yes it is possible that my suggestion is out there as I probably didn't understand what you were asking.