question for any 60' v6 engine

[evanesce69]

hehehe, cant wait till i get home tonight. Starting new project today so my time on the PC will be limited at best.... Li Ferrite Red.

This thread has gone bonkers, but i don't care, I like the way it is going.

That is why i love this place, different opinions and those with the opinions are not afraid to support them




Rob

 

[shadetree]

No, this is what I'm talking about....




My response!

It's the di/dt that creates the huge voltage spike when you remove a battery cable. This can happen just with the current load on the battery.
The load isn't sufficient, for the alternator to go "full amperage", but large voltage spikes will be created. The voltage output of the alternator
is controlled with the "voltage" regulator, not the current.

I'm sure you read his book on how an alternator and voltage regulator works also!!! :idiot

If the regulator is shorted, there is no controlling voltage.

. What happens when a voltage regulator fails with a short circuit?

A. Assuming that this is not a catastrophic internal failure which would cause the alternator field circuit breaker to trip) the field windings would be able to draw the maximum possible current and would effectively turn the alternator full on. In this condition the alternator is producing its maximum rated power. shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

If the regulator is shorted, there is no controlling voltage.

WRONG again Shady!!! If the regulator is shorted, the field will get full current, causing the alternator to go to max output!!

 

[shadetree]

WRONG again Shady!!! If the regulator is shorted, the field will get full current, causing the alternator to go to max output!!

Uh, thats what I have been saying, but I'm not going to post the link again as you seem to have a problem comprehending what is written. Why do you have to yell ("WRONG")?shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

Uh, thats what I have been saying, but I'm not going to post the link again as you seem to have a problem comprehending what is written. Why do you have to yell ("WRONG")?shady

Shady, this statement of yours:

"If the regulator is shorted, there is no controlling voltage."


IS WRONG!!

 

[shadetree]

REGULATOR

The regulator has two inputs and one output. The inputs are the field current supply and the control voltage input, and the output is the field current to the rotor. The regulator uses the control voltage input to control the amount of field current input that is allow to pass through to the rotor winding. If the battery voltage drops, the regulator senses this, by means of the connection to the battery, and allows more of the field current input to reach the rotor, which increases the magnetic field strength, which ultimately increases the voltage output of the alternator. Conversely, if the battery voltage goes up, less field current goes through the rotor windings, and the output voltage is reduced.

With the regulator shorted, the control voltage will have no effect on voltage regulation, and the alternator could go to full output. Due to the short in the regulator it does not "see," nor re-act to the control voltage, so one can assume there is no voltage control to the alternator. There are some variables, but this is what I'm talking about.

See. I said all of this without insulting you, calling you an idiot, or any other names, and by not shouting. It really can be doneshady

 

[Bob Ayers]

REGULATOR

The regulator has two inputs and one output. The inputs are the field current supply and the control voltage input, and the output is the field current to the rotor. The regulator uses the control voltage input to control the amount of field current input that is allow to pass through to the rotor winding. If the battery voltage drops, the regulator senses this, by means of the connection to the battery, and allows more of the field current input to reach the rotor, which increases the magnetic field strength, which ultimately increases the voltage output of the alternator. Conversely, if the battery voltage goes up, less field current goes through the rotor windings, and the output voltage is reduced.

With the regulator shorted, the control voltage will have no effect on voltage regulation, and the alternator could go to full output. Due to the short in the regulator it does not "see," nor re-act to the control voltage, so one can assume there is no voltage control to the alternator. There are some variables, but this is what I'm talking about.

See. I said all of this without insulting you, calling you an idiot, or any other names, and by not shouting. It really can be doneshady

One more time Shady!!! The regulator is a bipolar transistor, and when it shorts (collector to emitter) the "control voltage" WiLL be the B+, or output from the alternator, causing the alternator to go to FULL OUTPUT!!!



Stop trying to get around the point that your statement:

"If the regulator shorts there is no control voltage"


IS WRONG!!!

If the regulator OPENED, instead of SHORTING, then there would be no
control voltage!!!


Your "CUT" and "PASTE" skills don't impress me!!!!

 

[shadetree]

Your "CUT" and "PASTE" skills don't impress me!!!!

It simply isn't in you to be civil. No one is trying to impress you with anything, especially me.

When you (and Gross) declare that a Ford engineer, who has been with the company for years, has written several technical and training manuals, and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about, sums up the argument for me.

Also, Piper Aircraft is wrong, and the last quote was from an auto alternator mfg. But, they are all wrong according to you.

Might I offer a suggestion. You and Gross submit an application to above companies as a consultant. You would be well paid, and they would save millions of dollars by you guys correcting their mistakes.shady

 

[Bob Ayers]

Might I offer a suggestion. You and Gross submit an application to above companies as a consultant. You would be well paid, and they would save millions of dollars by you guys correcting their mistakes.shady

What about your mistakes Shady, or is everything you post plagiarized?

 

[MAKG]

Guys, settle down.

Shady, the part you miss is that sometimes you misquote Ford engineers. They can be right and you can misunderstand it. Seen it happen. And you did here. You jumped to conclusions about failure modes and what "no controlling voltage" means, and WHERE in the regulator the short might exist. I count at least six possibilities (B,C, and E each to ground and to each other), and I'm probably missing a few. They will not all have the same failure modes.

And yes, engineers are sometimes wrong. And I already have a full time engineering job, thankyouverymuch. As does Bob. And I already spend enough of my time (i.e., almost all of it these days) correcting other engineers' errors. So don't tell me that an engineer with 20 years experience doesn't make a mistake in print. 'Cause if that were true, I could be working on MY product -- a flight planner -- as opposed to another company's screwed up coordinate transformations.

 

[shadetree]

Shady, the part you miss is that sometimes you misquote Ford engineers. They can be right and you can misunderstand it.

You can't possibly know that, as you are not looking at the material I have. I quote it verbatum, so I don't assume anything.

And yes, engineers are sometimes wrong.

At least you admit it, and yes they are wrong much of the time, else there would be no service bulletins correcting their mistakes.

So don't tell me that an engineer with 20 years experience doesn't make a mistake in print.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Dr.Probst's qualifications top yours and Ayers by a long shot when it comes to the subject at hand. As with all manuals, there are mistakes for various reasons. Dr. Probst publishes corrections to his manuals where there are mistakes, as they are used for training purposes. There are none on this subject.

This aside, I quoted two other sources for my information, and according to Ayers, everybody is wrong but him. And, you are right, the symptom/result can depend on other factors. I already implied that.

I know what the problem is, but will save that for another day. I have already tried to say bye once, but I'll say it again.shady

 

[evanesce69]

ok so there are 2 revolutions of the crank to fire all 6 cylinders, voltage regulators short out, engineers create and fix mistakes...

that last one intrigues me.....


Can an engineer create a mistake by fixing another, what if the fix breaks all other working parts? What if the break was intentional, aka an easter egg???

Just a few ???'s to bake your noodle...

 

[bobbywalter]

i understand what shady implied. i do that to weld and run my grinder.



its out of control in a sense, but controllable at the same time...you regulate voltage with rpm...generally speaking most will be 17-20 volts at idle though which will fawk stuff up.

 

[Bob Ayers]

ok so there are 2 revolutions of the crank to fire all 6 cylinders, voltage regulators short out, engineers create and fix mistakes...

that last one intrigues me.....


Can an engineer create a mistake by fixing another, what if the fix breaks all other working parts? What if the break was intentional, aka an easter egg???

Just a few ???'s to bake your noodle...

Nope, ALL six spark plugs will fire with one revolution of the crank with DIS, and EDIS. Half the cylinders will be near the top of the compression stroke, the other half will be near the top of the exhaust stoke with one rev. of the crank, and will switch on the 2nd rev. of the crank.

With a conventional ignition that only fires near the top of the compression stroke, it takes 2 crank revolutions to fire all 6 spark plugs. DIS, and EDIS
ignitions fire the plugs twice as often as with a conventional ignition.

 

[MAKG]

You can't possibly know that, as you are not looking at the material I have. I quote it verbatum, so I don't assume anything.

Shady, you can quote something verbatim and still misquote it. One way is to use it out of context. There are many others. The one at hand took a statement about one specific failure mode and assumed it was the only one. "Shorting out" a regulator is vague. There are many ways to do it.

Every conclusion has a set of conditions to which it applies. There are no universal conclusions (not even the Cartesian one -- he was wrong). If you do not meet those conditions, you do not have the conclusion.