Need some help with a 89' BII with a 2.9v6

[low_five]

distributor 180 degrees out.

something wrong with the transmission?

 

[CraigK]

Tedybear

I gotta admit, I haven't read this whole thread (whew!). So if you've done these things already, please disregard . . .

Have you tried plugging the vacuum line (on the vacuum T at the back of the engine) that goes to the AT? Just in case something in the tranny is not screwing things up with the vacuum when in gear. (If I do this on my B2, the engine runs fine, but shifting is affected.)

Also, you replaced the PVC line. Did you also replace the PVC valve? For a few bucks, I'd put a new one in. Just in case.

CraigK

 

[Tedybear]

That's worth a shot. Everything the PO claims he did? Really can't be what happened. He claims to have rebuilt the transmission, took it for a test drive and it was "fine" until it started to billow out white smoke from the tailpipe. He managed to snap off the O2 sensor when he reinstalled the transmission, and it was running like crap when we picked it up. Didn't show any white smoke until it was warmed up--but spewed black smoke when under load. It barely made it onto the car carrier ramps.

The PCV is new. And the tiny black plug is installed into the top port, as it was with the old one. (forgot to put it in at first LOL...now that was a huge vacuum leak!)

While the prospect of pulling the upper intake is not a nice one. That's the only real way I can get on the disty. When I removed it the couple of times it was out? I positioned the rotor pointer straight ahead, made a mark--and made a mark showing where the pointer was at when it cleared the gears (due to it rotating with the gears) The engine was not disturbed or rotated while the heads where off, or while wiring in a new pigtail and new TFI module. So the disty should have gone exactly back to the same place as before.

If the disty was 180 out of phase? Wouldn't that also deep-six the engines idle as well? Granted it does idle a bit rough (not nearly as bad as it did with the old cap/rotor--they where badly worn)

Things that still are out there? Even though my timing light is a Harbor freight super cheap model? The base timing is at 10 with spout removed.. Give 'er some pedal at idle to get it at around 2000rpm out of gear--and I do see the timing advance normally--but an oddball spike with the timing mark does kick up. At first I figured it was the cheap light--But when in gear--foot on the brake--and a bit of pedal? It does start to advance, and then seems to "hunt" a bit--and slowly drops until it rests at about 13-15btdc...at that time it's running very rough and boggy--minor detonation or pinging--and then it stalls out.

It's still also running a bit to rich (watery eyes)

I'll give the disty another look over, and ensure when it's at TDC on the crank?, and compression on #1? That the pointer is at #1 on the cap.

I'll also re-do all the shake and baked wiring and get it back to looking 'pro'. Judging by the damage to the wiring, it was baked enough to melt some insulation of the wires together--but not enough to create a physical 'short'. Then again? It's possible if I missed it? The short (if one did happen) could have damaged the input circuit on the eec. Granted it does not trip any codes--Everything shows up "11". But a different eec computer is $30 at the knackers yard, the ID tag does cross over to a '89 bronco II. And it would be some small comfort to know the computer's in good shape.

And the wild card to this whole mess? It still seems to run fairly decent while in open loop mode. Get it into closed loop where the computer is not running off defaults? That's when the real fun starts.

S-

 

[MAKG]

Just an idea ---

Try disconnecting the neutral/park switch harness from the transmission. It shouldn't matter even if the switch is bad, but it's easy to test.

The only other thing I can think of that you haven't already covered is an intermittent open in the SPOUT circuit. Perhaps you can try a wiggle test with the engine idling?

Some years' Mitchell books give all the "normal" PCM voltages for the various wires at the harness connector at several different road speeds and at idle -- you can backprobe them with a straight pin.

 

[Tedybear]

Wish I had that Mitchell's handy. My day job is an field manager for an arcade company (until I get downsized next week LOL....but hey, 9 years is a good run) I do repairs on all types of video games, and am well versed in voltage checks, pot/control checks, etc...

That's why this one really is ANNOYING to me!! 4 years as a tech, and 15 years working on electronics... And this thing is kicking my tuckas! LOL

(Hey, if you don't laugh about it? You'll wind up depressed and sad...both things I can't stand)

Anywho.. Local salvage yard found a cross referenced CPU (or ECA) for the eec4. Dropped $5 off the price, so $25's not to bad for something I can swap in and do a fast check on.

I'm also going to do a voltage drop test at the connectors, and the ECA pins themselves to see if there is a pinched wire or an open/short.

Funny you should mention the SPOUT.. My initial diagnosis was the spout circuit was "opening" while the truck was in any gear, telling the disty that it was in 'limp' mode, base 10btdc at all times. Put 'er into park or neutral? The wire/connection was made, and the timing advanced normally via computer control. (it would also explain why the computer was able to modify the timing for the self-test function--not in gear, so the idle didn't drop and create a bad connection) That's why I replaced the TFI module and the pig-tail connector.

It's possible I only repaired 1/2 of the problem, and the SPOUT circuit is kicking open/closed rapidly creating the hunting timing advance problem. Why that wouldn't kick up a CEL? Not sure? Seems it should in the short while it was driven around the yard.

Main reason I did pick up another ECA? In case anyone wonders? The battery was disconnected several times for extended periods. That alone SHOULD have kicked up a code for power removed from ECA. It didn't even see the battery was disconnected for several days?!? If the SPOUT was faulting out while in gear? The ECA should also have kicked up the error code for that. Kinda makes me wonder if the current ECA is having issues in "Seeing" the errors and reporting them. The only code it did manage to trip at the start of this wing-ding? Was the missing O2 sensor the PO busted off the pipe. That's been replaced and the wiring checked.

It's quite possible IMO that the missing O2 sensor, with the wires floating in the breeze (about a foot worth of bare wire ends free-floating around the back of the engine/exhaust/transmission)....Combined with the toasty section of harness--while I did not visually see any shorts of the wires together? I had to peal several wires apart. Maybe something created a dead intermid. short that gave the input chip on the ECA a hard enough knock? (I've seen that happen quite a few times on the computers I deal with for work...Anything, including a static discharge from a finger to a wire? Can fry the input chip)

So....I've already pealed back several inches of wiring tape/wire 'loam' back to good wiring. I'm going to patch in new wiring from the good section, to the connectors and ohm them out to ensure a clean connection. Doing all 3 connectors in full..and I'm going to pull the harness that feeds the top 1/2 of the engine and double check that one for burnt wiring as well. I think it should be ok? Looks like part of the harness managed to slip near the exhaust manifold at some point in time.

Once I get the wiring fully re-worked and verify it 'good'? (and I'm going to frankly run the tester right to the harness at the ECA and make sure it's good) Then I'll give it one more shot. If it still fails to work? In goes the "Test" ECA and I'll see if the problems repeat.

If nothing else? That should verify the wiring is 100% in working order, and if the problem still exists? It's gotta be elsewhere in the system.

(this is why I quit being a tech 15 years ago LOL!! I hate "random" problems that screw with ya)

S-

 

[MAKG]

FYI, I see those Mitchell books in libraries all the time.

The big libraries tend to have more complete collections than the little ones, but even the one-room library in my 3000-resident town has a couple of the binders. But SJSU has every one going back many decades.

 

[PDL JMPR]

I had a 91 that I replaced the plugs with Bosh plugs and it ran like doo doo. If the truck didn't come with v-power plugs you should remove them and go back to the stock plugs.

Something else that you didn't mention is the Idle Air Controle valve (IAC) located on the intake manifold. I did a tune up on a full sized ford and had a similar problem. By doing a complete tuneup, I forced the engine to to retun to the designed specifications, if the IAC is worn out or sticking, it will not respond to the engine demands and will cause it to run poorly.

Hope this helps. GEF

 

[PDL JMPR]

Have you looked at the Idle Air Controle valve(IAC)? I had a similar problem with a full sized truck after doing a complete tune-up. When you replace worn out parts, you force the engine to run back in specifications, this might cause other worn out parts like the IAC to function like it's new. It might not be functioning properly. Replace this with a new one from your local auto parts store for about $60.00. I think you will see a a big difference. GEF

 

[Tedybear]

IAC appears to be working normally. I did remove it, de-gunked it with carb spray due to the light coating of black crap. Had my wife turn the key just to "on" and watched it pull the plunger in/out as she cycled the key. Also hosed the crap out of the port just infront of the butter fly at the air intake. With the air intake big rubber hose off, exposing the throttle body? You can hear the air rushing into that little hole and feel air pressure as it's doing it's thing.

Does it mean it's good? **shrug** Can't afford to buy a new one for a couple of weeks, as the money is just about out until next payday. I'll go forward with the wiring checks and repairs and see where that leads us. You make a valid point, getting the parts back to "spec" does kick the motor to run back to spec's..and would expose any remaining weak points rather quickly.

Key point behind using the NGK V-Power goes back to the cars/trucks that we have used them on. One in point would be a probe gt with a 2.2 turbo. We burned through several brands and each one just seemed to lack with the engine. Ran sluggish, slow response, etc.. We put the NGK's in (recommended by a probe forum) and the car frankly ran like it just came off the showroom floor. Power to spare, worked well with the turbo, etc.. They are also currently in our '75 F250 with a 360FE. Truck always starts faithfully, smooth running, and fairly responsive considering the engine has never been rebuilt or modified. (God help me if I have to drive that one back and forth to work each day LOL..It gets only about 10mpg)

S-

 

[Tedybear]

Minor update:

Repaired the burnt section of harness, turns out that's the part that feeds the inputs to the CPU. Also replaced the ECA with the one from the junker's yard.

I talked with one of my contacts down at Advance Auto. This guy's pretty decent and knowledgeable with most stuff. Turns out he's driven a few of the BII's and Rangers with that transmission, and he stated flat out that each one has bogged a bit when put into over-drive-drive...but runs a bit more peppy when in just "Drive" alone. One such was a BII that had the problem to the point the other emp. would put it into "Drive" and upshift to overdrive when he hit 50mph.

Is that useful information? Who knows?

The computer and wiring repairs didn't do much However I said heck with it, and removed (for about the 100th time) the upper intake. This time I was hell bent on pulling the injector rail and figuring out if this might be a fuel related issue, manifesting itself as more of a timing issue.

So the rail is pulled, and we did some tests. Just for an FYI!! DO NOT ATTEMPT WHAT I DID WITHOUT A HELPER AND A FIRE EXTING. THIS IS DANGEROUS!

Engine stone cold, ignition disabled. Rail sitting on top of the engine hooked up to the fuel lines. Hit the key to ONLY the on position to prime the fuel system. Used a small hook/scribe tool and a handful of paper towels and gently depressed each injectors "Pintle" valve (the tiny needle end that sticks out the end) System was primed after each test to ensure 40psi available.

4 injectors shot out a myst type fan spray. That's what I expected.

1 injector just kinda peed out at a moderate slow rate.

1 injector? Managed to get a bit 'wet' on the end, fully plugged.

Oddly enough? The peeing injector started seeping/leaking after the test. Figure something got into the valve and bunged it up.

Now I removed the wet one...and got a handful of gas and rust/crud out of the fuel rail for my efforts. The fuel sock which is visible on the 'in' part? Fully plugged solid with crud. I actually ripped the sock out of it, and it was packed like a small brick with gunk.

The wizzing injector that started to seep? That's on my desk now. It's also pretty caked with rust in the sock. I figure the other 4 are not far behind.

Now my wife asked me the magic question. Why would this create an issue only in closed loop, and not in open loop? My response?

In open loop, and just after starting the engine--the computer is working off very rich presets. The other 4 injectors are dumping in more fuel, due to the computer not being able to correctly read the O2 sensor. This could also explain why the idle after starting is a bit rougher then I'm used to.

Now when it goes into closed loop? The computer looks at all the sensors, and moves the injectors to fire in a more fuel managed method. With 2 of the 6 injectors not doing their job? The computer does not know that--and it's trying to manage the system. All the while with 2 cylinders getting to lean a mixture..

Now does any of that make sense??? Because I'm going to replace the blown apart injectors (Gotta admit...Yeah I'll take stuff apart LOL) And probably replace the fuel socks on the other 4 injectors that are still functional. There is nooooo way I can afford to replace all 6 injectors at this time. Little stinkers are very spendy on a tight budget. But I get the feeling this is going to clear up quite a bit of the problems.

If not? Back to the ol' drawing board------with a few more things checked off the list.

As for the gunk in the fuel rail? Gonna do it quick and nasty. With all 6 injectors off? Going to point the rail directly into a clean bucket...and nail the pump a couple of times. That 40lbs of fuel pressure should be enough to blast out the build up in the rail. And yeah...we will use extreme caution while doing so.

S-

 

[holyford86]

i must commend you for being very thorough and methodical with your diagnosis and repair.

 

[Tedybear]

i must commend you for being very thorough and methodical with your diagnosis and repair.

This thing is under my skin at this point.

Call it a "Quest" LOL.

I've ordered in a "Kit" including new o-rings/seals....and most importantly? The mesh filter. Not to bad of a deal, $18.00 for the kit, includes 7 of each item (in case one gets screwed up, there's an extra)

I'm going to attempt to get the injectors a good cleaning out. From the looks of it? Just the main rubbers and the filters should ensure 4 of them will work out. The weepy one? And the other one (just for giggles and grins) I'll give a good soaking in carb cleaner to de-gunk 'em. The website suggests soaking to remove and loosen the crap. Then come up with a small DC supply of some type in order to "fire" the injectors while hitting 'em with compressed air and carb spray. That should be more then enough to reverse blow the gunk out of 'em.

I've got a 7vdc supply, not to much kick...and I did a fast test with one injector I brought home with me. It fires the injector normally, even if it's a bit under powered. It'll do to allow me to clean things out.

We are talking a very large amount of rust/scale/gunk built up in the fuel rail. I'm hopeful that just hosing it out with carb cleaner with the injectors all removed will clean things out. If I had to guess? The truck was not run for quite a while, in order to get things that bad. Gas normally prevents steel from rusting inside-out..So I figure get it cleaned out, and fresh fuel..

Well...I'm off in a holding pattern until the injector "repair" kit comes in. Wish I could afford to just go with new ones. But at around $40bucks a pop? That's $240 I need to use towards front brakes and two tires.

S-

 

[MAKG]

Yes, this is quite methodical, and one of few bona-fide plugged injector problems. Very clearly so, I might add. It's hard to argue with a rustbrick sitting on a workbench (and it kinda sounds like my RABS valve).

I'd suggest trying to find out where that rust came from. Replace whatever is rusty on the inside. You might get lucky at a junkyard -- I've seen 200+K mile 2.9Ls over 20 years old with bright shiny fuel rails (on the inside). I'd be afraid the tank was full of gunk. Of course replace the fuel filter. Probably replace the sock on the fuel pump if there is a lot of crud in the tank.

I would definitely replace the injector socks and O-rings since you clearly have the skills to do it, and the supplies are on their way. 2.9Ls don't cut injector O-rings like 4.0Ls do (aluminum fuel rail with not enough chamfer -- Vaseline works).

 

[Tedybear]

Probably a good bet between the fuel tank, and that injector rail...

The fuel filter was very heavy when I changed it out. (brown nasty fuel when I drained it) I just have a feeling this truck was not driven in a very long time, and it had moister develop in the fuel system.

I'll check with the local truck salvage yard to see how much $$ the guy wants for an injector rail. While I can clean all that crud from the rail? Being eaten from the inside out does not give me that happy feeling. Fuel tanks if they start to leak will be a steady 'drip'.. If the injector rail has a breach? That would be a 40psi driven fuel pistol. Given how much physical crud is present in the socks? I just hope this cures the problem once and for all.

For the most part? Things are starting to make more sense. The constant lower then expected vacuum--I used to 'tune' carb's using a vacuum gauge after setting the timing. So fuel starvation would create that issue. The system probably detected a lower then expected, or wonky o2 reading--probably not enough to trip the light--but enough where it over/under compensated for the air/fuel mixture. It would also explain why this problem seemed to get slightly worse after each repair attempt. As more crud built up in the mesh socks on the injectors? It choked the engine off slowly a bit each time.

Or with my luck? I'll do all this work and the engine will flip me the bird again and still have the same problem LOL!

S-

 

[holyford86]

...Or with my luck? I'll do all this work and the engine will flip me the bird again and still have the same problem LOL!

S-

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