Mulling upgrades

[James Morse]

For the '97. I was going to sell the Mazda, but now I'm thinking of keeping it. Because the '97 is like almost flawless and the Mazda has a few cosmetic issues so I take that when I know I'm going to park in town, a lot of the slots are narrow now and you know sooner or later some jerk will door-ding it or worse. Everything works on both of them, obviously the '97 is nicer (creature features) but there's nothing wrong with the Mazda so I'm thinking it's probably worth more to me than what I'd get for it. Plus having 2 trucks is nice when you want to be working on one of them for a while.
Now to the point of the post. The XLT has 29" tires, but it came with 31" (265's). So I was going to set that back to oem, that will give me an inch more clearance (diff's) and the truck already has 2" lift blocks in the back (oem I'm sure) so 31" will cause zero problems with rubbing or clearance and it will look better and it will set speedo back to where it should be (reads high now with the smaller tires). Yes I'll lose a bit of power, but the 4.0L is real gutsy so I'm not worried about that, and it has the 3.73 lsd so that's all good.
But I was looking at the tech section and before I go out and spend a grand on tires I want to decide if maybe I want to consider going to 33" tires like '96 (I think that's TRS-2, not sure). That would give me yet another inch clearance. It seems like then I want to do "something" to make sure I don't have rubbing problems. Adding an inch seems like I'd only need to add one more inch lift, but maybe I need more in order to clear the fenders. Maybe I need new front fenders. I was looking at the Skyjacker equipment, it's not all that expensive. I don't want to raise it tons because every time I raise it I'm making it more top-heavy (less stable). Then I get into the issue of the differentials (Dana 35 in front). It seems like either I live with probably a perceptible power loss, or, I need to swap out the ratio front/rear and that sounds hard to do if I can even get the front. The speedo gear would have to change, probably the easiest part of it. Cosmetically, I'd probably swap out the rear bumper for black, there's a relatively minor blemish on the chrome, and I think black steel with D-rings looks good and it's useful. Ideally Class 3 hitches front/rear. Winch maybe. If I had a hitch in front then I shouldn't need tow hooks in front, right?
It's easy to get ahead of myself.
What do I want to do with it? I want it pretty seriously trail-capable, I go through creeks, sand, mud, rocks (but not rock-crawling). I think that's like a pre-runner type mod. I'd want light bars or at least off-road lights front/back.
It's the mechanicals of it that are the main concern and ideally things should be reversible back to oem which I would think is possible if I ever wanted to do it.
It has to be good on the street (all things considered since I know I'll sacrifice some there) and it has to look good, i.e., proportional. I see a lot of trucks raised super high, with small tires, not much ground clearance, I can't understand why, and they look horrible. I want it to look aggressive but moreover -be- aggressive off-road.
Right now I'm concentrating on swapping out the auto-hubs, that shouldn't change anything as to plans. And running tubing up from the diff's because of water. Minor stuff but needed.
Chase racks are cool but means tool box wold have to go I'm pretty sure and I like tool box. Again minor.
Help? Suggestions? Something I missed?
I probably missed a bunch of stuff in there. I don't want to hack it up. I'm willing to swap out the front fenders if I have to (should be reversible, I'd think).

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Ok, so take a breath or three. Holy smokes dude.

So you need to stop and give this some proper thought. You need to figure out what exactly you want to be able to do and build to that. Things need to be done in some resemblance of order or you might cause yourself some headaches.

D-35 and 8.8 are supposed to be fine for up to 35” tires. A 6” lift would be adequate for 35” tires. The truck would still be relatively stable on 35’s. So that’s about your max before you get into straight axle swaps and stuff. I know you weren’t talking of going that big, but it’s good to know what’s practical.

The 4.0 is plenty adequate for 35’s, with the right gearing. It’s a solid motor. Transmission and transfer case are fine. I’d recommend an extra transmission cooler and shift kit if it’s an automatic.

3.73 gears are ok for 31’s, 4.10 gears are a bit more peppy. 4.10 gears are needed for 33’s to 35’s for tires. 4.10 is what I have in my choptop on 35’s with a 4.0, it works just fine for as light as it is, but a deeper gear or a doubler (or both) would be nicer for off-roading. By deeper I mean 4.56, 4.88 and 5.13 ratios.

2-4” lift would be needed for 33’s, obviously the higher the lift the more clearance for the tires so nothing rubs. A 2” lift can be had relatively cheap, you only really need F-150 spring perches or stacked washers or something for the front and Chevy drop shackles for the rear. It’s not an ideal lift because you’re pushing the limits of the stock front control arms (aka: radius arms), but it works and I’ve run it. Anything more than 2” requires extended control arms. Of course, there is an argument for extended control arms being potentially advantageous to a stock front, but that’s kinda beside the point. Some cheap lift kits use the stock arms and just lower the crossmember. It works, but definitely limits suspension travel.

You’ll need an alignment and after a lift and tires.

My choptop I converted to 4x4, and I don’t really remember which gear I used but it was either the stock one for the truck (3.45 gears) or out of whatever donor I used for the swap. Whatever it is, it reads pretty much correct.

If you’re going to change out bumpers and lift it, you might as well consider going to aftermarket bumpers. AOR (Affordable Off Road) has been said to be a good one.

Pre-runner is more about high speed desert racing.

A headache/chase rack can certainly be used with a toolbox, just some are suited for boxes and some aren’t. A lot of commercial full-size trucks get a headache rack and a cross box in the bed.

My choptop handles fine on the street. It’s a Ford, not a Ferrarri. I drive it like a lifted rig. It requires a bit of a different driving technique than a stock truck, but not hard to get used to. When it’s running, I’ll drive it anywhere, it’s a fun toy and I get a lot of attention in it.

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Do you mean milling upgrades?

Mulling is not much of an upgrade....I usually fall behind doing that.

 

[James Morse]

Thanks, yes, things have to be done in order with the end result in mind, for sure. Right, AOR has some nice stuff and sometimes run discounts.
About the lift, right now it has 2" blocks between the spring seats (rear) and the springs. I'm pretty sure that's stock, I don't think anything was done to the truck except they replaced the driveshaft with one piece. I couldn't find anything in the shop manuals, but it's clearly different than the '99, not a 1:1 comparison as it's a different gen, but I'm pretty sure that 2" block was to accommodate the 31" oem size tire (plus the fender flares). So when you say 2-4" lift for 33" tires, are you saying add 2" to what I have (in other words 4" blocks) or are you saying the existing 2" lift might work? I don't know what they did in front, but I see about 2" rake (slanted towards the front) so I don't know if that's because of the rear blocks or if that's just normal to allow loading in the back and not have it squat. It's hard to measure rake, but I'm pretty sure it's there.
Everything on the truck should be fine for 31" since it came with those (well - 265/75R15 - just about the same).
Body lifts, I don't understand what that gains you since a suspension lift raises the body anyway.
What I want ideally is increase clearance, and hopefully that increases approach, breakover, and departure angles. Breakover is important because when you come up out of a creek bed there is always a little climb then it levels back out so effectively it's a hump you are going over maybe with a rock ledge there and it has stopped me before, maybe out of abundance of caution, but you surely know what I mean.

I know my o.p. was kind of a shotgun approach and I didn't even mention rock bars as a maybe (real bars, not just steps).

This is my thinking right now: just going to oem size tires gains me a little height and I'd have a stock truck pretty capable.
If I go to larger tires, 33 or 35, then it's a whole other story. According to the shop manual, 3.73 was the deepest ratio you could get with 8.8 lsd. Brochure lists "performance axle"option, no idea what that meant, maybe the 3.73 vs less deep. Anyway, just thinking that TRS-2 writeup, he said 35's would have probably been better. Don't know if they would stick out past fenders, that look I don't like too much. Point is, with these bigger tires then I need the deeper ratios. It probably wouldn't impact gas mileage much because of the bigger tires, and that's not a big concern anyway, gas is cheap. Right now I get a bit over 12mpg, that's all in-town driving. And if I'm upgrading the ratio then I might as well go 4.56 at least. Street performance (acceleration) should be about the same as stock, just high end speed would be less but that's of no concern as long as I can go 70mph I'm good with that.

33's I might be able to get away with just a little more lift. 35's probably I have to replace front fenders but that looks like a matter of a few bolts (and trying to match the paint color).

I think the main thing is I need to know more / do research / ask about how hard would it be to swap out front/rear ratios, and, can I get them. All the other stuff like front/rear bumpers, chase rack, lights, hitches, that is mostly or all bolt-on and doesn't impact the tires/ratio.

I agree just like any project it needs a plan - what's do-able, how hard, how to do it, the order to do it, expected/anticipated potential issues, and cost, and any special tools needed.

I just figure, instead of spending 40k for a new Ranger which, admittedly, are nice, but for off road they don't really have much over the '97. Lockers... guess that ought to be in the plan, I'm unclear whether that means I lose lsd, I think so.

Maybe I'm off-base, but it seems like for something like 10k (parts) I could do everything I'd possibly want to do, and I'd still be spending about half what a new truck costs, plus less insurance, taxes, etc. There might be some labor costs, maybe not if I can do everything. And it's ok if it has to be in pieces for a while, I have the other truck. I no doubt should start with the hubs, that's pretty easy, not expensive, and should be done no matter what else I might do.

Per usual catch me up short if I went astray anywhere here. I see it as a fairly long term project, just need to get the ducks lined up correctly.

I see an awful lot of 4x4 trucks and just about all stock trucks are no higher clearance than mine is even with shorter tires. I'm not sure why they get 4x4 unless it's for snow which we don't even have here.

And granted it'd still be an old truck, but it's been real good to me so far. I would like to go up the "moderate" roads without issues. Thanks for the help.
Edit: Are you saying I would want another trans cooler besides the one in the dual-core radiator?
Here's pic of the 2" blocks I was talking about.

below, axle ratios for stock '97 4x4, from shop manual

 

[Curious Hound]

Do you mean milling upgrades?

Mulling is not much of an upgrade....I usually fall behind doing that.

Definition 1

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

Ok, so… yes, those 2” blocks are definitely factory. 2wd didn’t get them except things like the Edge and Trailhead models. 4x4 got them. When I say a 2” lift (or whatever amount of lift for suspension), I’m talking about in addition to the factory lift. Either a taller lift block, different leaf springs, a shackle that’s longer than stock (Belltech 2400, IIRC, which is a Chevy drop shackle), or by modifying the spring mounts.

Body lifts allow more room in the fenders than stock, and may give better access for things. My choptop has a 2” body lift and it gives access to some things through the wheel wells. It also provides clearance for bigger engines, transmissions and such. For off-roading suspension lift is more important than body lift, but the bigger the tire, the more clearance to the axle. Any lifting and larger tire will help with approach/breakover/departure angles.

4.10 was relatively common in LSD for the rear. Well, there were more opens, but dad’s 99 has an 8.8” LSD and I believe the 01 at my property is also 4.10 LSD 8.8.

Lockers are an improvement over LSD. LSD can leave you spinning just one tire sometimes, but a locker will spin both when you put power to it. It can be a little hard on tires on pavement in turns, but you know you’re putting power to both back wheels most of the time. A spool locks both back tires together (a locker will unlock if you’re not on the gas in a turn and let the wheels move at the different speeds), and spools are not recommended for street driving because you’ll squeal tire at every turn.

The easiest way to change ratios is find axles with the ratio you want. A D-35 front pig with 4.10 gears and any Ranger 8.8 with 4.10 for example would be a bolt in change. Supposedly 4.56 gears were an option but I’ve never seen a Ranger with them, factory.

On the trans cooler, yes, in addition to the one in the radiator. Usually a 4.0 Ranger will have a small one behind the grill on the passenger side as an extra cooler, I’ve added a second extra on the other side behind the grill and on my green 00 Ranger I modified the grill assembly and used a larger F-150 transmission cooler.

 

[James Morse]

I looked at the front of the Dana35 and it's 10-bolt so according to TRS chart that is 27 spline. Chart says 35" tires ok. I read this following quote, does it apply to me or no?
"The majority of failures on a Dana 35 axle relate to weak 27-spline C-clip-style axleshafts. The factory never intended for these shafts to last with larger than 33-inch tires."

Taking things one at a time, if in theory I want truck w/ 35" tires to have same street pep/torque as 31" does this makes sense? 31":3.73 ratio = 35":4.21 ratio. So going to the closest up (deeper), 4.56 ratio with 35" tires should have slightly more pep than stock 31" and 3.73 ratio. But I don't know if that maths makes sense. 4.10 would also be pretty close and if I could find a Dana 35 4.10 that part would be a swap vs getting aftermarket gears and installing them, that sounds difficult.

If I made these kind of major changes, to me it makes more sense to go 35" than 33" plus TRS-2 builder said he would have rather put 35" ideally. Sure, 33" is an upgrade, but if I'm doing it, might as well go for the max I can. Remembering that every 2" change in tire diameter only gives me 1" more clearance, but every inch counts.

So in terms of driving on the highway, that takes care of tires vs ratio, unless I'm totally off base. Then you have the problem of tire rub. Suspension lift takes care of that, adding probably 2" to the 2" I already have, maybe 4" additional, but that seems like a lot of lift (total 6"). It depends do they rub or not and if they only rub in the front then aftermarket fenders address that.

Then there is the question of lockers. Yes I definitely want them not spool but regular locker and I am guessing from what you said it is full time, there is no way to turn it off but it's still streetable.

I do not know if body lift would help me, I understand its potential advantages. What happens to the 2" of frame that is exposed (?) when you lift the body? Add-on rockers? or put rock bars? Both? Cosmetic and functional considerations. It would make the cab entrance really high, ok for me I guess. Lower is of course better in terms of c/g so really I want the minimum lift to clear the tires and give me enough suspension articulation.
To clear tires/fenders body lift might make sense in addition to less suspension lift as you are lifting less weight higher (lifting only the body vs the suspension plus body). I could be wrong there, but you would know. It sounds hard to do it.

The other thing is doublers(tm). I have to drill floorboard for manual switch, ok. Heck at that point you might as well make the xfr case manual too - just saying - probably not necessary though.

Not sure if I am on track or have gone off the rails, but, let's say you have 35" tires, enough lift in the suspension (blocks probably instead of springs but have to know more about that), 4.56 (or 4.10) ratio front/back, lockers, and doubler. To me now you have practically a tank that will go anywhere I'd want to go safely (and get back), and streetable. You'd have four 4x4 ratios - hi, hi doubled, lo, and lo doubled. Seems like you could hardly get stuck, assuming you have the correct tread for what you are doing and still observe your truck's limits.

That's still not a rock climber and that's ok with me. My interest is more in getting to where I want to go and getting back rather than climbing rocks as a sport. Nothing against it, just it's beyond what I "need". I put that in quotes because none of this is a need it's just for fun and a project. Can you still get hung up, sure, but it way reduces the chance of it. Rock climbers look more like something you need to trailer to your offroad spot.

Looking for you to poke holes in this tentative plan as it takes shape. To sum up:
4.10 or 4.56 ratio
35" tires
4" to 6" total lift, whatever is the least required so tires don't rub and have max travel they can (probably Skyjacker)
Lockers
Doubler
Additional trans cooler
Body lift, open to consideration
Aftermarket front fenders if required.
Don't want to hack up rear fenders.
Don't want width of tires sticking out [much] past fenders, would have to check laws on that but I see all kind of weirdo setups around here sticking out like 6" past the fenders. That will sling mud all over the body but I guess "so what".

Bumpers, hitches, winch, chase rack, rock bars, lights, front bash plate, all that - doesn't impact the above as far as I know.
If it makes sense then I'd start looking at availability and how hard to do. Assume budget not unlimited, but would rather spend more dollars vs having to cut stuff up and jury rig etc. Has to be street legal. Seems like if I picked a number out of the air, 10k ought to cover it, might be high, but I might have my hired wrench help so could be labor on top of parts. Also might want to get a lift for the shop. Might want compressor at some point (painting, and air tools). Latter 2 I was planning on getting anyway at some point so if I needed them no biggie.

 

[Curious Hound]

Dude. Read through my build thread from beginning to now. I would not recommend less than 4.56 gears with 35" tires. 6" suspension lift and I still needed to trim fenders, though 2" body lift might have worked. You're headed straight to where I went when I started my build.

1993 Splash in SC

I bought this truck a few weeks ago - 1993 Ranger "Splash" 4X4, 3.0l, M50D, 1354 transfer case, 7.5" rear Dana 35 front, 3.73 gears. All stock except for the stereo. I live on 12 acres in the country. The truck will be used around the property, around town, and hopefully for trail riding and...

www.therangerstation.com

 

[Bgunner]

Your rear suspension is stock so as it sits now you do not have a lift. This is not considered a lift. The 2" blocks under the springs came factory on all 4x4's in that year and were designed for the 265/75R15 (31") tires. So any lift you buy will only put you that amount over stock height.

Check your state laws as many states limit you on how much lift and how much over sized tires you can use. This is the starting point before seriously looking at a lift kit. Just a heads up.
MA. has a 4" suspension or a 3" body lift Limit. Tires are allowed 2" over stock giving 1" of lift with tires. Check your local laws on lifts and tires.

Lift blocks vs. Lift springs... The issue with lift blocks is that when you have severe axle wrap the blocks tend to come out. Even not rock crawling your axle will get axle wrap (the axle literally twists under the springs), Lift blocks are much cheaper but for a serious trail I don't trust them. For a street truck lift blocks are fine, minus the occasional burn out that will cause axle wrap.

Lockers can be either switchable or not. Many like the ARB lockers for the switchable but require air to acuate them which is a major pain. At one time there were electric switchable lockers, I haven't looked into them for years so I'm not sure they are still made but this would be Ideal in my opinion for a locker. This would eliminate the streetability issues that come with lockers. Something to look into.

Gearing... Even with 4.10 gearing the 35" tires will be hard on the engine (loss of power at very low RPM's that you run off road trails at) so for that size the 4.56 ratio is much better for off road activity's.

I can't seem to find a video that shows how to measure to see what tire size and rim off set you will need. But to be honest I didn't search that long. They are out there I just didn't put in the proper search words to get it quick. For 35" I think the 6" lift is necessary but I could be mistaken and why I wanted to link a video on how to measure it out. Pretty sure Power Nation had a vid on it when it was the Power Block years ago.

EDIT: Ericbphoto got to the lift and gears before I did...

 

[2011Supercab]

Check your state laws as many states limit you on how much lift and how much over sized tires you can use

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacodefull/title46.2/chapter10/article8/

The front bumper height of trucks whose gross vehicle weight ratings are 4,500 pounds or less shall be no less than 14 inches and no more than 28 inches, and their rear bumper height shall be no less than 14 inches and no more than 28 inches.

No vehicle shall be operated on a public highway if it has been modified by any means so as to raise its body more than three inches

 

[Curious Hound]

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacodefull/title46.2/chapter10/article8/

The front bumper height of trucks whose gross vehicle weight ratings are 4,500 pounds or less shall be no less than 14 inches and no more than 28 inches, and their rear bumper height shall be no less than 14 inches and no more than 28 inches.

No vehicle shall be operated on a public highway if it has been modified by any means so as to raise its body more than three inches

Yuck.

 

[Bgunner]

Lift it to the sky and put a low easily removable bumper on it that is not over 28" off the ground. Will be legal as long as there isn't a law saying how high the lights can be off the ground. Ma. used to have the law written like that till people lowered their headlights to accommodate the law but still had really high vehicles.

In seriousness you should find out what part of the bumper they measure top or bottom of the bumper.

The rule on the body being lifted is strictly for body lifts. So the bumper would be your gauge for suspension lifts.

 

[Bgunner]

Yuck.

@ericbphoto How high is your bumper using the 6" lift and 35's? This may help James Morse plan out the lift and tire size.

 

[2011Supercab]

Lift it to the sky and put a low easily removable bumper on it that is not over 28" off the ground.

There's something in there about doing that.

" in cases where bumper heights have been lowered, height measurements under the foregoing provisions of this section shall be made to the bottom of the frame rail. "

 

[Curious Hound]

@ericbphoto How high is your bumper using the 6" lift and 35's? This may help James Morse plan out the lift and tire size.

I'll measure it tomorrow.

... and height of bottom of my frame rail.