cheap ideas for improveing power

[jarz21]

I still want to know why America is so seemingly opposed to truly accepting the greatness that is the Diesel engine. Sure, there are the mammoth beast trucks that require the torque of a Diesel, but small, efficient Diesel engines are not even remotely as prevalent in the States as they are in Europe. Moreover, if the goal of hybrid vehicles is to maximize fuel efficiency, why on Earth do they use gasoline engines instead of Diesel?!? Okay... infrastructure and public perception may be the case, but just imagine what that Prius COULD be getting if it were running on a Diesel engine of the same displacement. If the reason is related to the emissions of Diesel versus gasoline, current technology is more than adequate to account for that.

Okay, I'm done ranting for now, and sorry for jumping totally off-topic. G'night!

 

[levi18175]

Yes, diesels engines get killer fuel economy, thats why those germans are sticking them in all those Volkswagons. Hard to believe that they were origional against the concept of a diesel powered "peoples car". Ironic how it seems to fit the argument.

Lets go ahead and nit pick on this. I am not a firm beleiver in running just a spacific brand of parts, look at my truck and it's rather obvious. I DO however beleive in running what parts DO THE JOB THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO.

I'm sure Dave, and Will, and all those other guys that were montioned know how to work on cars, and I hope to god that they know and understand the innerworkings of an engine.

Now don't take me as some shade tree mechanic. At my age, I have more qualifications, and certifications than roughly 85% of the working population of america. I didn't get those pretty pieces of paper by sticking my nose in a book, I was taught by some of the best. I am known very well around here as one of "THE GUYS" to go to with your car. I'm not saying I'm the best, but the ones better than me ALL send me christmas cards.

I grew up around sprint cars, derby cars, drag cars, rock crawlers, mudders, rails, quads, imports, street racers, you name it, they're around here. Hell, I built a 50cc moped that could run upwards of 75mph. Even though Dave, and Will, and the other guys you mentioned suposedly knows alot about cars, doesn't mean that I don't. I know that I don't know everything there is to know, but I do know who to call if I don't know.

Shortly after this argument started, I went to all my sources just to double check myself, and not one of them could help but ask if you guys were serious. Evadently you people need a refresher course in the internal combustion engine.

I'm not trying to say that the factory equipment will not do the job. I am not saying that spark is spark. I am not saying that the sky is pink. I AM saying that increased out put voltage DOES attain more power at the wheels. If you can't for a second begin to beleive this than go get your books out, and break out the pencil and calculator. If you can't figure out the math, go back to school, and stop arguing about this.

 

[shadetree]

Dave is right, once the gas is ignited, the flame front takes care of itself, BUT,
if you have a bigger flame "kernel" it will ignite more of the fuel initally giving a more efficient, faster burn.

This is the theory of dual spark plugs. The fuel is ignited from two sources, giving a faster, more complete burn, with a slight increase in power and economy.

On engines where the compression has been raised, by whatever means, the use of hotter ignitions will be more beneficial.

But on a stock engine, I would spend my money on other things first. shady

 

[krugford]

Yes, diesels engines get killer fuel economy, thats why those germans are sticking them in all those Volkswagons. Hard to believe that they were origional against the concept of a diesel powered "peoples car". Ironic how it seems to fit the argument.

Lets go ahead and nit pick on this. I am not a firm beleiver in running just a spacific brand of parts, look at my truck and it's rather obvious. I DO however beleive in running what parts DO THE JOB THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO.

I'm sure Dave, and Will, and all those other guys that were montioned know how to work on cars, and I hope to god that they know and understand the innerworkings of an engine.

Now don't take me as some shade tree mechanic. At my age, I have more qualifications, and certifications than roughly 85% of the working population of america. I didn't get those pretty pieces of paper by sticking my nose in a book, I was taught by some of the best. I am known very well around here as one of "THE GUYS" to go to with your car. I'm not saying I'm the best, but the ones better than me ALL send me christmas cards.

I grew up around sprint cars, derby cars, drag cars, rock crawlers, mudders, rails, quads, imports, street racers, you name it, they're around here. Hell, I built a 50cc moped that could run upwards of 75mph. Even though Dave, and Will, and the other guys you mentioned suposedly knows alot about cars, doesn't mean that I don't. I know that I don't know everything there is to know, but I do know who to call if I don't know.

Shortly after this argument started, I went to all my sources just to double check myself, and not one of them could help but ask if you guys were serious. Evadently you people need a refresher course in the internal combustion engine.

I'm not trying to say that the factory equipment will not do the job. I am not saying that spark is spark. I am not saying that the sky is pink. I AM saying that increased out put voltage DOES attain more power at the wheels. If you can't for a second begin to beleive this than go get your books out, and break out the pencil and calculator. If you can't figure out the math, go back to school, and stop arguing about this.

Just because you have the experience, doesn't mean you have the knowledge. And just because you have the knowledge, doesn't mean you have the experience. It seems to me that those two statements tend to be the underlying source of some of the "discussions" that take place when it comes to engine technology.

What sources are you talking about here? Can those sources provide a few simple cylinder pressure traces showing a comparitive difference between coil output volatage and in-cylinder pressure rise? It seems to me that needing a hotter spark would be a result of higher cylinder pressures and/or spark plug gap. Not the other way around.

 

[Simple_serf]

ok.

Now let's think here for a sec.

Fuel has a set expansion rate in a carburated engine (different fuels have different expansion rates). Once you reach this expansion rate, there isn't a whole hell of alot left you can do. Jacking the voltage up to one million volts won't even help. If you are burning the same gasoline in two engines that have are identical combustion chamber design, same cam, carb/FI, and (more importantly) SAME COMPRESSION RATIO, the fuel will expand at the same rate. Voltage isn't that important, so long as the spark temerature is consistently high enough to fully ignite the fuel, which all factory stock systems are.

I run engines (both are the same model) that use both low voltage ignitor ignition on the early units and sparkplug ignition on the later units. Both engines have the same performance, despite the fact that the spark in one is 8 volts and the spark in the other is 20,000. In this case the advantage is less moving parts to wear out and when they both foul out I have to spend 1/2 hr on the ignitor unit as opposed to just swapping a plug out. The way the ignitor is designed is to crate a big fat spark, despite the 8 volts. The way the Wico mag on the other engine is designed on the sparkplug engine is to create a fat spark, which just happens to be around 20K volts.

Following the same idea, hot tube ignition works on the principle that the fuel will ignite at a certain temperature at a certain pressure. Heating different parts of the tube change timing, and nothing else. many of these engiens had sparkplug ignition optional, but both systems perform satisfactorily.

BTW...

The Lima 2.5 is pretty much the highest performance Lima 2.x stock (other than 2.3T), despite the fact that they have been in production for over 30 years. The current variant (which is FPP LRG-425) is pretty much the same as a 1980's design single plug engine, cast iron head. This engine has a specific purpose in life, and high performance is NOT one of them. In the trucks, there is a reason why bolt ons don't do much to this engine. More power on this requires more major modifications, and for the price that goes into those, with the power that you end up getting out, it is more economical to go to either a 3.0 or a 4.0.

The people that were brought up (Will, Dave, Allen, MAKG) proabably know more about Thermodynamics and combustion(and that is really what this discussion is about) than the rest of us combined on this whole board. "knowing how to work on cars" is not what this discussion is about.

If you really want to prove that higher output voltage makes a big deal, take a car with the stock ignition and dyno it. Then goto the hotter coil and dyno that. You won't see a difference.

 

[Broncodude]

I think everyone has good points. Altho I feel its the total engine combination that gives the engine what ever hp or torque it has. Example=a hotter cam will make some difference but even more with other mods. He will never feel a hotter coil in the seat of the pants or in his pocket. But with a hotter coil, and higher compression, and other mods then it does help more.

 

[HAPPY_RANGER_GUY]

Benefit vs. Cost

It's all about benefit vs. cost. For the small benefit of these hot ignition coils, the cost is far too great for most people to accept. The stock coil works great, so why should I fork out money for something that is not going to be significant in performance payoff. I'll use that money instead to replace the fuel pump which should be failing any day now on my 95.

T.

 

[levi18175]

If you really want to prove that higher output voltage makes a big deal, take a car with the stock ignition and dyno it. Then goto the hotter coil and dyno that. You won't see a difference.

Been there, and done that.

1991 Mazda Rx7, (fc) 13b, installed 6al msd ignition system, gained 17 whp
1985 Ford Ranger 5.0, flat top pistons, ported, polished, and decked heads, 2.02/1.85 vavles, 11.5:1 comp, 298/.514 cam, single plane intake, custom ground lifters, custom ground rockers- 1.7:1 with simple factory coil and distributor ran 386 whp. After Accel distributor, and high voltage coil, and complete ground kit, 391 whp

1989 s10 Blazer, tbi 350, bone stock motor 190 whp. After custom "TRUE" cold air intake, and msd ignition upgrade, 227 whp

 

[levi18175]

I think everyone has good points. Altho I feel its the total engine combination that gives the engine what ever hp or torque it has. Example=a hotter cam will make some difference but even more with other mods. He will never feel a hotter coil in the seat of the pants or in his pocket. But with a hotter coil, and higher compression, and other mods then it does help more.

This guy is seeing my point. I have been stressing the ignition system, simply because thats what seemed to be the most denied. Other than the cold air intakes that this site is obviously completely against, but I really don't want to get into that one.

 

[BlackBII]

Well he obviously "knows how to work on cars" lol lol......
Once a Fuel is ignited it will combust and make the same magnitude of power regardless of how "hott" the spark was that ignited it. When other variables are considered, the total amount of compression, the temperature of the oxygen and the amount of fuel, all those factors can change the "power" output.
This guy probably has Bosch platinum +4 plugs, because having 4 electrodes rather than one will make a bigger spark, lol. Go buy a tornado and get another 5hp increase because of the swirling vortex making better fuel atomization.

I'd like to see your "true cold air intake" Do you have a water-air intercooler with ice water pumping through it? How cold is your air?

D

 

[Jonboy]

Are there any other cheap upgrades other than the seemingly useless ignition upgrade? Hahaha! From my understanding theres nothing that will bolt on to help HP performance. Well unless its a port and polished head. Then a header, cam, and a good cold air intake will really wake it up.

 

[levi18175]

That's it, I have had it.

I noticed that most everyone of you guys that are dogging me, and my suggestions are into 4wd, more than street performance, which makes sense seeing how you are more interested in bottom end torque rather than top end horsepower.

Your absomulte stupidity is humorous, yet your persistant ignorance agrevates me. Not one of you have been able to point out any reason as to why spark is just spark, and the cold air intake deal on this site is just flat stupid. It's obvious that you apparently lack the experience in the street perfomance world. Bolt ons really do improove power, don't believe me, I don't care anymore. I know it works, and I get paid to put them on all day long. People refer me over pretty much all the other builders around here, and my reputation speaks for itself. I have probably twice as many cars in my day as any one of you that have downed my suggestions, and I guarantee I have had less faulty returns than anyone around me, I have charts to proove it.

I feel sorry for the people that are on here that really do know what they are talking about for having to put up with your stupidy. I can't wait for the day you fill your six foot hole, I will gladly dance amongst the fresh soil.

 

[shadetree]

That's it, I have had it.
I feel sorry for the people that are on here that really do know what they are talking about for having to put up with your stupidy. I can't wait for the day you fill your six foot hole, I will gladly dance amongst the fresh soil.

Like most 21 years olds, you think you are the smartest person on the planet, and know all there is to know about everything. There are many of us with years and years of experience that know a little bit about what we are talking about. Because no one will take you at your word, and see you as you see yourself, shows your immaturity. And, to wish those who disagree with you ill will, says something about your mental capabilities also. shady

 

[HAPPY_RANGER_GUY]

Oh my...

...I am not a firm beleiver in running just a spacific brand of parts, look at my truck and it's rather obvious. I DO however beleive in running what parts DO THE JOB THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO...

And...the stock Ford coils DO THE JOB THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO. You agree?

That's it, I have had it.
...It's obvious that you apparently lack the experience in the street perfomance world...

Well, PaleBlue is not building a street performance automobile. He's working with a Trail / Daily Driver per his signature information. This is an entirely different mindset. You're more entrenched into the whole street performance thing where small, yet expensive, gains are acceptable. No offense Levi, we're just coming at this from two different worlds.

Reference:
"90 Ford ranger 2wd.......working on building it into a trail rig and daily driver. ALMOST DONE!!! "


T.

 

[BlackBII]

lol this thread is rifreakindiculus,
Lets just let him keep building these street performers, or are they racers?
lol
Oh wait, he gets paid to rip people off, best idea ever!