83 Ranger Idling at 20 BTDC

[Big Jim M]

Ok

The plug I found did not have a shorting bar in it but it was the only thing that even looked close to a SPOUT. In theory if it was the spout the timing should be down closer to 6* since the shorting bar isn't in there right? The new distributor looks exactly like the one I removed. Also checked with a couple parts stores for my make and model and all call for a vacuum advance distributor. There is no mention of a SPOUT in the Haynes manual under the timing instructions for my make and model. And I am unable to locate it on the wiring diagram for my make and model. Also when I twist the distributor the timing does in fact change. it goes in between 20*-35* before it starts to die. (assuming the distributor contacts get too far from rotor) let me know your thoughts. just a reminder this is a 83 Ford ranger 2.3 carbureted.

First what is it that causes the dist to stop turning? If it is the vac advance hitting something then the below is the only thing I can think of to get the proper timing to the engine. If it is wire length or something simple then change that and get the dist to twist more.

Then lets assume the spout does not exist. Then the lowest timing you can get out of the dist is 20*? might be a simple one cog off when the dist was installed.

So what you need to do is to twist the dist all the way as far as it will go toward the 20* setting. Then take the cap off and MARK where the rotor is pointed. Then you will see which direction the rotor will need to go to retard the timing MORE.. So remove the dist and look closely at the bottom of the dist. Most have a bottom that looks like a standard screwdriver. If so or whatever the shape is you get a similar shape and stick it down in the dist hole and ADVANCE the oil pump drive hole with that screwdriver.
Now you can install the dist one cog and when installed with the rotor pointed to the same location as before the timing should be greatly retarded.
It is not uncommon for a dist to get one cog off when being installed. Sometimes the installing procedure is one cog off and the oil pump obliges by moving a bit to accommodate the bottom of the dist.
Then when the setting is at 6* install the vac back to the advance. Off-idle is the advised location.
Big Jim

 

[Jason_1984]

Hey thanks again for the input. There is nothing in the way that stops me from turning the distributor as far as I need to turn it.(either direction) 20*-35*BTDC is the range where it will actually sit there and idle (never idles very smooth but there is a change in idle and timing when turning the distributor) I turned all the way down to 6btdc but truck idled extremely rough then died quickly. I will try to reset the distributor and see what happens. While its out ill take a look at the screw your referring to and see if there is any results. I appreciate the help.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

I haven't read the whole thread. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong thing. Try the distrubor in the best position for best idle. What are the rpm? Are you sure the carb is tuned correctly? I hear you saying there is noticable gas smell from the exhaust. That tells me the carb isn't working properly at idle and that can have a bad effect on idle as well. It will act like it is cammed up and have a rough idle. Stuff that can cause carb problems; float improperly set or stuck open, idle jets maladjusted, choke plate maladjusted. There may be more. If this has been covered already, sorry.

 

[Jason_1984]

I moved the distributor 1 tooth over. lined up the timing marks. Lined up # 1. Removed vacuum from distributor. started the vehicle. Got up to normal operating temp. RPMS right at 900. Still seemed to run better around 25-30 BTDC range.(engine still shaking) Put it at 6* BTDC started to run really rough almost trying to die but stayed running. Plugged in vacuum advance line and that took it up to around 20*. (still shaking) Got a brand new carburetor installed less than a year ago. I sure hope its not an internal setting on that carb. I have a potential option of swapping my engine out for a 2.3 fuel injected from an 89 mustang lx. Anybody have thoughts on that??

 

[Big Jim M]

Wow!

I moved the distributor 1 tooth over. lined up the timing marks. Lined up # 1. Removed vacuum from distributor. started the vehicle. Got up to normal operating temp. RPMS right at 900. Still seemed to run better around 25-30 BTDC range.(engine still shaking) Put it at 6* BTDC started to run really rough almost trying to die but stayed running. Plugged in vacuum advance line and that took it up to around 20*. (still shaking) Got a brand new carburetor installed less than a year ago. I sure hope its not an internal setting on that carb. I have a potential option of swapping my engine out for a 2.3 fuel injected from an 89 mustang lx. Anybody have thoughts on that??

Wow Jason! Finally after 4 pages we find out that you actually can get the timing to the proper place! All this time and here we are back at square ONE.

Ok so now we start all over again. Very first question is do you have the timing light on spark plug (cylinder) No. 1?
The timing must always be made from the very first cylinder. That being the cylinder closest to the front bumper.

If that is being done correctly then we have a different problem than we have spent the four pages on.

What we have here is most likely a vac leak or a carb problem. I would first off look for vac leak. Could be a vac hose pulled away from a source. Could be a manifold leak. Could be a carb gasket. Could be a nipple on the carb vac source jumped off.

When all possible vac source leaks have been shown to be in good working order we go to the carb.

Big Jim

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Good point on the vacuum. I bought a neon for dirt chep because it wouldn't idle down. As i was pulling the motor I noticed a gasket that had been improperly installed on the egr system, allowing a giant vacuum leak. Fixed gasket and great idle. Motor ended up having a rod knock hidden by the high idle....oh well, I'm still driving it.

 

[Mark_88]

As mentioned, the vacuum removed from the distributor to set the base timing. Base timing should be 8 to 10* BTDC.

Putting the vacuum line back on will send the timing to 20 to 30* BTDC...that is normal.

The shaking could be caused by a number of things. Rotating the distributor a few degrees counter clockwise should raise the idle...clockwise will drop the idle...you should not have to rotate the distributor more than 45* in either direction as the engine will stall usually.

Now...what is the shaking?

1 Is it like a miss that happens every so often?

2 Is the whole engine rocking on the mounts back and forth violently?

3 is the shaking like an engine does when it is about to stall? Sort of sounds like a popcorn maker on steroids...

1 is usually an interruption in fuel supply...either the physical lines in, the pump, filter, or settings on the carb.

2 is usually timing is off...especially distributor...could be out 180*

3 is usually firing order is whacky...check 1-3-4-2 easy enough to mix them up...

Without hearing the engine running, seeing how everything is connected and even smelling the tailpipe emissions...makes this a bit harder...

Tailpipe should not smell excessively of gas or carbon (that other smell like soot)

 

[Jason_1984]

Big Jim your comments crack me up. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the help but you have been telling me to track down SPOUT that doesn't exist on my truck(possibly why it took 4 pages) and you still feel the need to talk down to me. Ill let it slide though. You know what they say about opinions. Back to the vehicle. Yes the timing light is on #1 plug wire. Yes I have checked the firing sequence and it is correct. Again I have replaced most all vacuum lines on top of engine. I cannot hear or find a vacuum leak. (perhaps coming from a component like EGR but cannot find any leak). Tried spraying carb spray around components and lines and nothing changes. The carburetor, carb gaskets, exhaust and intake gasket was replaced less than 1 year ago. The new carb and carb gaskets where done by firestone so who knows. I was not impressed by that company. I have also replaced the fuel pump within the last 18 months. After I set timing at 6* and plugged in vacuum advance i tried to adjust the carb but could not get it to idle smoothly. I did notice changes in idle when adjusting but it never stopped shaking the vehicle. (just shook less) I am not smelling the gas smell from the exhaust since I adjusted the carburetor. The vehicle is visibly shaking. I can see the body of the car shake while it sits there idling in the lot. If i rotate the distributor I will no longer be at 6*BTDC. I can see the mounts shaking from the engine shaking but the mounts seem to be operating properly. ( i wouldn't say the mounts are shaking violently) It doesn't seem like it wants to stall. When I step on the gas it responds pretty well. Once the RPMs are above 2000 or Im driving in gear the vehicle seems to smooth out. I only notice the shaking when idling or coasting to a stop. I do not notice any pattern at idle it seems to be a random shimmy. Its kind of like a random engine cough.(if that makes sense) Is it possible the computer could be bad and sending incorrect readings causing the air fuel ratio to be off?? Are there any other ways besides listening for a hissing sound or spraying carb spray around a component to test vacuum? Any helpful comments are greatly appreciated on this matter.

 

[Mark_88]

OK, sorry, had to actually read through whole thread to see what's been done...and everything I've added was covered...except!

You don't really have a computer on your vehicle so not to worry. The idle control module on the passenger side acts sort of like one but not really...and can be removed completely...I kept mine in case I needed 300 ft of copper wire for something...still have it...although it is now sitting in a bag under the deck since swapping in a FI 2.5...

Anyway...not sure where you pulled the 6* BTDC, because it doesn't ring any bells...I recall having set mine to 8-10* and then twerked, er, tweaked the idle with the distributor. Rotating the distributor is what most people do...it is needed in most cases as I've never got mine to run smoothly at the proper RPMs any other way.

Sounds like you have quite a few new or recent parts so it shouldn't be this complicated...did the truck run smoothly before the head was rebuilt or is this the first time you've had it going?

Now, the except...when you rotated the distributor...did the idle change at all? It should but you didn't elaborate on that part. This is critical...it will die out when rotated too far...but it should also raise and lower audibly or visually if you have a tachometer...but DOES THE IDLE SPEED change?

Another question that I didn't see answered directly...did you set the piston to TDC on the compression stroke? And, if so, did you eyeball the top of the piston to make sure it was at TDC?

I'm not the most experienced guy on here with this setup, but I've probably been the most successful (in my mind) with setting the timing. I seem to get it right first time most of the time...unless I let the tension pulley whack the belt too hard and it skips a bit...and I usually need to rotate the distributor about 5 - 10 degrees clockwise every time to get it to idle smoothly...but it always runs...unless...there is a carb or vac issue which rarely happens now that I've had enough experience with assembly.

 

[Big Jim M]

You know what? Your description sounds like a leaking compression. Everything you write can be traced back to a bad valve or bad lobe.. Why not pull all the plugs and do a compression test? Think about it you have a bad running engine at low rpm but it smooth's out at higher rpm. That is indicative of a bad valve.
Give it a shot.
Big Jim

 

[Mark_88]

A vacuum test can also indicate valve and compression problems...if you have a vacuum tester..they are fairly inexpensive...and can give you a good idea what may be wrong...even things like ignition problems can show up in a vacuum test...

Check here for test results...

http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/Summer2003/VacuumLeaks.shtml

 

[Jason_1984]

When I got the truck it was idling a bit rough. (previous owner said idles rough at random but he didn't know what caused it) I changed plugs, wires, rotor, and cap and the truck ran perfect. Then about 3 months later the truck started blowing black smoke and idling extremely rough. (same symptoms as now but now it doesn't have the black smoke now like it had prior to swapping carburetor) I changed head gasket. While it was out i had the valves machined by a machine shop. One out of four valves needed replaced and the other 3 I was told were fine and could be cleaned and machined and still be used. Put it back together and that didn't fix the problem. That's when i had a new carburetor replaced and that fixed the black smoke and idle. 2 weeks later it was idling rough again. (no black smoke) Took back to Firestone and they adjusted carb settings. Ran good for 2 weeks and started to idle rough again. There is a PCM on my passenger side fender. Tag under hood says 6*BTDC. The idle speed and degrees BTDC does change when I turn the distributor. Yes number one piston was at TDC compression stroke. Pulled plug and visually inspected and piston was up by spark plug hole. Compression test and leak down test was good. Compression was fine according to my friend (ford tech certified) and Firestone who also did a compression test. If I remember correctly Firestone tested vacuum when they adjusted the carb and it was a bit high. I think they said it was around 22. Unfortunately I do not have a vacuum tester. (probably should have bought one instead of all those parts that didn't fix the problem)

 

[Mark_88]

Great, thank you for the feedback. I'd have to find my Haynes manual and check the timing again...but 6* BTDC would work on a stock head...obviously!

Only thing you missed is what carb is it...one or two barrel and what make (part number like Holley 350...Motorcraft 5200...etc. If the shake/shimmy is consistent then it may be carb related, but if it is sporadic that is another story. But someone with experience with a particular carb might be able to warn you of possible problems...or just search google...surprised how much information is out there!

The tech could adjust the carb so unlikely to be a stock 2bbl...aka the Asian carburetor that was detested by most owners who suffered through their ups and downs with it.

Anyway, the engine was running smoothly then suddenly started to shake or shimmy sporadically...and after the tech adjusted the carb it ran smoothly for another two weeks (or so, not that critical)...

However, did they change or adjust anything else in that service or just the carb. I really hate it when they attack (or when I do it myself) two or three problems at the same time and don't test the results before changing something else...if you know what I mean...

The vacuum tester might help you out here if it was valve or ring related...some other potential problems too...but if the tech ONLY adjusted the carb and it ran smoothly...there is a problem with the carb adjustments...maybe the screw(S) working itself out or in causing air/fuel mixture problems (the black smoke would be too rich and you would smell the fuel in the exhaust). Since the black smoke has not came back it could be going the other way...too lean...which is usually closing the screw by turning clockwise...counter clockwise allows more fuel by opening the passage.

Just an FYI in case you're not familiar with the fine points...too rich means that unburned fuel could be both pooling and leaking down past the rings to cause a watered down oil...not good for bottom or top end bearings and such...too lean can cause the engine to burn out valves and reek havoc on other internal parts...

If the unburned fuel gets expelled into the exhaust and the cat doesn't help burn it off (it can lead to premature catalytic converter failure) it could pool and explode...usually inside the muffler...I went through three mufflers in two years because of this...lol

I hope the tech only adjusted the carb...there are other adjustments on some carbs that you can learn about and do yourself once you know the carb...and there are thousands of tutorials on this on the internet...

 

[Jason_1984]

Hey thanks for the advice. I will look into getting a vacuum tester just to cross that off the list. (hopefully) If firestone is correct and the manifold vacuum is reading 22 what does that translate to engine health related? I am almost positive that is what they told me the vacuum was. The carb is a carter yf 1bbl. I have tried to adjust it but just cannot get the idle smooth again. I do have the manual and have tried to adjust the carb that way but if anybody has advice please don't hesitate.

 

[Big Jim M]

Jason above 20 and steady is good to go. While you are at it get a compression tester too. Do your own tests without changing anything between them. You will have a lot more to go on after the tests.
Really rough idling as you describe and smoothing out at rpm most times comes from more deeply than just a carb adjustment.
Big Jim