68 F-100 4x4 Drivetrain decisions...

[sgtsandman]

@Rick W

The FE was Fords big engine back in the 50s and 60s prior to the development of the 385 series (IE: 460 big block). Came in displacements of 331 to 428 ci in factory form, with 352, 360, and 390 being the most common. One of the baddest Ford engines of the 60s and 70s was based on it. The legendary 427 SOHC. Stock FEs were heavy at about 650 lbs in stock form, you could drop almost 80 just swapping to an aluminum intake. Last used in the mod 70s. Aftermarket had mostly died out in the 80s but is making a comeback due to dedicated enthusiasts.

7.3 Godzilla is Fords new big pushrod engine that they introduced a few years ago, 2021 IIRC. Small and lighter with as much power as an equivalent displacement FE, plus much better efficiency. Current production, current parts availability and aftermarket support. Where the FE is nearly tapped out (without going wild) at these power levels, the 7.3 is stock and just getting started. Basically it is the modern successor to the FE and 385 series engines.

Every bit of this is about doing what I want. Rebuilding the truck and making it mine. The problem is I don't know which I want on the engine. They are the only two options that hold any interest for me and they both have their good and bad points. I don't have kids or a wife and mom isn't getting any input aside from the shop and financial aspect. Financially it's only if she will let me borrow from the benefits we're getting from dad's retirement and life insurance. Note I said borrow, basically a self financed loan what ever I use gets paid back. Even if I did have a wife and kids they wouldn't get much input in how it gets built, this is for me. I don't too much care about what anyone else thinks, they can rebuild it to suit them or sell it after I'm dead and gone. That is assuming that the thing hasn't rusted to pieces again by then.

I'd about have to be missing an arm or leg to not be able to shift a manual, and if that happens I'll get help to do an auto swap then. My modifications are actually going to make the clutch easier than it is now since I'm converting from mechanical linkage to hydraulic. Truck has power steering and power brakes, those aren't going away, but might improve.

For normal truck duties I'll have a 2021 F-150 and/or a 2000 F-250 Powerstroke, both 4x4. I do want to feel like I can jump in this F-100 and drive to Alaska with no major concerns. I do want to be able to go to Carlisle or Maggie Valley trucks meets with a small camper (3500ish lbs) or a Ranger on a flat bed in tow. None of what I'd pull are outside the norm for a 1/2 ton truck, even a 60 year old one.

Thanks for the words, but I'm really not looking for life advice here, just discussion on the two engine choices.

It sounds like the Godzilla might be the way for you to go then since you don't think the electrical will be a problem, assuming you can find the transmission you want. The rest will just be fabrication to make it fit and mate up with everything else. Working with old engines can be a pain and it seems like you've done your research on getting parts and how easy, or not, they are to get. Room in the engine bay shouldn't be a problem either, unlike more modern trucks.

Don't mind Rick, he means well and he is really just trying to be helpful in his own way.

 

[Curious Hound]

Besides, there's a definite cool factor in telling people you have godzilla under the hood.

 

[Rick W]

@Rick W

The FE was Fords big engine back in the 50s and 60s prior to the development of the 385 series (IE: 460 big block). Came in displacements of 331 to 428 ci in factory form, with 352, 360, and 390 being the most common. One of the baddest Ford engines of the 60s and 70s was based on it. The legendary 427 SOHC. Stock FEs were heavy at about 650 lbs in stock form, you could drop almost 80 just swapping to an aluminum intake. Last used in the mod 70s. Aftermarket had mostly died out in the 80s but is making a comeback due to dedicated enthusiasts.

7.3 Godzilla is Fords new big pushrod engine that they introduced a few years ago, 2021 IIRC. Small and lighter with as much power as an equivalent displacement FE, plus much better efficiency. Current production, current parts availability and aftermarket support. Where the FE is nearly tapped out (without going wild) at these power levels, the 7.3 is stock and just getting started. Basically it is the modern successor to the FE and 385 series engines.

Every bit of this is about doing what I want. Rebuilding the truck and making it mine. The problem is I don't know which I want on the engine. They are the only two options that hold any interest for me and they both have their good and bad points. I don't have kids or a wife and mom isn't getting any input aside from the shop and financial aspect. Financially it's only if she will let me borrow from the benefits we're getting from dad's retirement and life insurance. Note I said borrow, basically a self financed loan what ever I use gets paid back. Even if I did have a wife and kids they wouldn't get much input in how it gets built, this is for me. I don't too much care about what anyone else thinks, they can rebuild it to suit them or sell it after I'm dead and gone. That is assuming that the thing hasn't rusted to pieces again by then.

I'd about have to be missing an arm or leg to not be able to shift a manual, and if that happens I'll get help to do an auto swap then. My modifications are actually going to make the clutch easier than it is now since I'm converting from mechanical linkage to hydraulic. Truck has power steering and power brakes, those aren't going away, but might improve.

For normal truck duties I'll have a 2021 F-150 and/or a 2000 F-250 Powerstroke, both 4x4. I do want to feel like I can jump in this F-100 and drive to Alaska with no major concerns. I do want to be able to go to Carlisle or Maggie Valley trucks meets with a small camper (3500ish lbs) or a Ranger on a flat bed in tow. None of what I'd pull are outside the norm for a 1/2 ton truck, even a 60 year old one.

Thanks for the words, but I'm really not looking for life advice here, just discussion on the two engine choices.

Understood. Not proposing life advice, like anything on this website, it’s how to get things done, how to accomplish the task. Just trying to test you guys and keep you guys sharp!

 

[JoshT]

Understood. Not proposing life advice, like anything on this website, it’s how to get things done, how to accomplish the task. Just trying to test you guys and keep you guys sharp!

It's all good. No doubt that if I were well rested I could sit down and carry on a whole discussion about that. At least in written word, not that great with the spoken word. I'd prefer if we didn't go off on that tangent here, prefer to stick to the truck and engine discussions.

 

[JoshT]

Besides, there's a definite cool factor in telling people you have godzilla under the hood.

Very true.

On a topic that Rick brought up. What would your kids want. I don't have kids so it doesn't really matter. If it stays that way then either my niece or my cousins' kids stand to inherit the truck.

I really doubt that my niece would want it, and if she did, the Godzilla would be the better choice. That said it would probably need the auto as well. She just turned 7 a month ago, so a lot of time for her to show interest and/or learn to drive a stick.

If it goes to one of the extended family, I'm pretty sure that I know which group it's heading towards. Those boys wouldn't be scared of the FE, but they would definitely appreciate the Godzilla. I've been considering the 7.3 since it came out. After the funeral Saturday I was taking with their dad about plans for stuff and wanting to dig into this truck and not being sure about the engine. He and the older boys kind of said at the same time without my prompting, "go, go, godzilla".

Dad also seemed kind of interested in the swap when I'd mentioned it to him as a possibility in the past, but the EFI stuff was way outside his wheelhouse.

Got to do some more studying and learning before I'm ready to commit to it.

 

[JoshT]

It sounds like the Godzilla might be the way for you to go then since you don't think the electrical will be a problem, assuming you can find the transmission you want. The rest will just be fabrication to make it fit and mate up with everything else. Working with old engines can be a pain and it seems like you've done your research on getting parts and how easy, or not, they are to get. Room in the engine bay shouldn't be a problem either, unlike more modern trucks.

Don't mind Rick, he means well and he is really just trying to be helpful in his own way.

Not going to say that it won't be a problem, but I am confident that I can figure it out if I stick with it.

I did do the Sniper EFI in the F-100 which is likely a very similar wiring job. Did the V8 swap on the '99 though that was plug-n-play except for a few wiring midifications.

Well prior to both of those, I did complete modifications to a '98 Explorer 5.0L EFI harness to make it run standalone in a first gen. I unfortunately let other aspects of that project overwhelm me and never tested it. I also didn't have a place to spread out and work on that project, and got over ambitious from the start on wiring. Before modifying the harness for standalone I thought I was going to swap the entire explorer body harness into the '86 Ranger and make it work with the Ranger's original dash and controls. By the time I'd realized my mistake I'd butchered the original harness beyond repair. I probably could have gotten it back together, but lack of space and wasn't really what I wanted. It was a regular cab short bed, and I wanted a long bed like my first truck.

As stated both the EFI on the F-100 and the V8 swap on the ranger have been done since then. I've now got a place to work. I've got more motivation to see this done properly. Companies make complete update wiring harnesses specifically for this truck, just route it and plug it in. From what I understand the standalone control packs for the godzilla are very simple, no more work than using the Holley stuff. Route the harnesses, make a few connections, and it's done.

 

[JoshT]

old school. my now worthless 2 cent opinion.

Not worthless. As drawn to the Godzilla as I am, it is still difficult to give up on the FE.

 

[Rick W]

When I was talking of the little kids and women, I wasn’t talking so much about who would end up with it, but maybe what feature they might want to see on it. If you’ve got a couple of nieces and nephews, they may want a little sticker of their favorite TV idol or something like that. I know it sounds corny, but it would be special to them and it brings the family together and fooling around with the truck becomes a family event. Maybe a small copy of it with their name on it, and a special place to keep it in the truck. Maybe their own little tool set. Who knows

Just a thought

 

[JoshT]

Once it is together and running, with the 7.3 driveline it will be a very hard truck to beat for upkeep.

It sounds big but it isn't much bigger than a 351W, they downright swim in a Super Duty engine bay.

I know.

Maintenance and upkeep are some of the draws to the modern engine over the old school.

Size is one of the reasons it is a consideration when the OHC modular motors aren't. People put Coyotes in these trucks, but I don't want to go there. Maybe if I were building a 2wd with a CV subframe, but that's not the kind of build I'm after. Although it has a small footprint, the Godzilla is Ford's modern big block. Seems like the proper successor to the FE and 385 series engines.

 

[JoshT]

When I was talking of the little kids and women, I wasn’t talking so much about who would end up with it, but maybe what feature they might want to see on it. If you’ve got a couple of nieces and nephews, they may want a little sticker of their favorite TV idol or something like that. I know it sounds corny, but it would be special to them and it brings the family together and fooling around with the truck becomes a family event. Maybe a small copy of it with their name on it, and a special place to keep it in the truck. Maybe their own little tool set. Who knows

Just a thought

No concerns there. Either they're into it as it is, or they aren't. Not built for them.

I don't really want working on it to become a family event. It's mostly going to be therapudic for me. The main time I want help is when I actually need a second hand for installing or removing something. Most of the time I'll be able to use the tractor or wait for my BIL to have a little spare time. Well the paint/body work I'll want help with. I've got no problem admitting that is beyond my skill level, desire to learn, and patience to tackle. I am going to have to find someone to work with me on that. I want it to look good and be solid, but I'm not after a show truck paint job or a lifetime warranty.

I don't do decals or bumper stickers. If you find anything like that on my vheicles, it is either a factory logo/decal, dealer markings I haven't removed yet, or required for place of work/education. If they want stickers of TV idols or characters on what they ride in, they can stick to riding in their parent's vehicles. If they want a toy, they can bring it with them, and take it when they leave. That's how my parents were raised, that's how I was raised, that's how my kids will be raised. Fortunately my niece seems to be getting raised about the same.

If they want a small copy of the truck, they can make one. The cousin's kids could probably do a better job of building a model copy than I could. From what I understand, they're getting pretty handy with the 3D printer stuff. Best I could do is find a sorta similar diecast model and try to paint it the same colors, but it wouldn't even be close to the real thing.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Very true.

On a topic that Rick brought up. What would your kids want. I don't have kids so it doesn't really matter. If it stays that way then either my niece or my cousins' kids stand to inherit the truck.

Don't worry about it, they will worship it anyway.

I had no kids on the horizon when I V8 swapped my truck 13 years ago... and tonight I was arguing against it being faster than my Coyote F-150 with my 6yo.

They see the thing that means a lot to dad and they latch onto it.

I think he thinks the Ranger is faster because being a 2dr he sits up front and can actually see what is going on, of course compared to the whisper silent '150 the Ranger with two blown out glasspacks puts a lot more heart into its battle cry too...

 

[pjtoledo]

Not worthless. As drawn to the Godzilla as I am, it is still difficult to give up on the FE.

it's the 2 cents that are worthless, my opinion, well, maybe, & whatever.

 

[Mechrick]

The FE was Fords big engine back in the 50s and 60s prior to the development of the 385 series

I've got first-hand experience with them. My Dad had a 360-powered F150, I briefly had a 390-powered F250. I've worked on Medium duty trucks that had smaller displacement FE truck engines.

One problem they all have is wearing out the recess in the block where the base of the distributor drops down in. This causes play in the distributor shaft that makes it impossible to adjust points. Easy fix, convert to electronic ignition.

The cast iron intakes weigh a ton, and because they are wider than a stock intake, replacing one with aluminum can drop the weight of an FE to just over what a SBC weighs, even though you retain the cast iron heads.

They are much more expensive than a Windsor, Cleveland or 385 series engine to build, and parts are harder to find, which is why given the choice I would start with something else. But if you have it already and are aware of it's shortcomings, they are a neat option. Definitely better than something vanilla like a SBC.

How difficult is a swap to a roller cam in a FE? The quality of current flat tappet cam cores would worry me.

 

[Shran]

Build the FE. That's my vote. I learned to drive in a 360 powered '73 F250 and drove my dad's 390 powered '76 for a while... I love those engines.

Just as an option, keep your eyes open for an old grain truck from that era. Some of them would have had FT engines which should be a relatively easy swap into your truck to keep it on the road while you build your engine... and they are almost always CHEAP... nobody wants old grain trucks anymore up here and I've seen a couple sell recently for under $2000 in running condition, and one even had a recently rebuilt engine with paperwork. They usually haven't been whooped on either like most pickups and larger stuff (dump trucks, etc.)

 

[JoshT]

I've got first-hand experience with them. My Dad had a 360-powered F150, I briefly had a 390-powered F250. I've worked on Medium duty trucks that had smaller displacement FE truck engines.

One problem they all have is wearing out the recess in the block where the base of the distributor drops down in. This causes play in the distributor shaft that makes it impossible to adjust points. Easy fix, convert to electronic ignition.

The cast iron intakes weigh a ton, and because they are wider than a stock intake, replacing one with aluminum can drop the weight of an FE to just over what a SBC weighs, even though you retain the cast iron heads.

They are much more expensive than a Windsor, Cleveland or 385 series engine to build, and parts are harder to find, which is why given the choice I would start with something else. But if you have it already and are aware of it's shortcomings, they are a neat option. Definitely better than something vanilla like a SBC.

How difficult is a swap to a roller cam in a FE? The quality of current flat tappet cam cores would worry me.

I'm sure, that was for Rick's benefit.

Absolutely on the timing. No noticable wear on mine, but electronic ignition was done on mine. Dad did duraspark on it years ago, I changed to computer controlled with the sniper install.

If I'm building the FE, the iron heads are going to go to. I've actually got good factory parts. Part number on the heads suggest 63 427 low rise, and Dad said that they came off a 63 Thunderbird. Part number on the intake says that it is 68-70 428 Cobra Jet. Having removed and installed that cast iron intake once, I'm not doing it again no matter how good the part is supposed to be. While the heads might be good, they are due for rebuild and would need extra work work to really shine. I can't see spending that much in cast heads when I can get better aluminum for the same price. Since I'm not trying to stay original I'd rather sell those parts to people that need them for proper restorations or doing period correct builds, and go aftermarket aluminum.

I have it already and the truck has always been an FE (that particular one for the last 40 years) are why I kind of want to build it. The short comings are why I want to swap it. About the same money for a more reliable, more dependable, more efficient, and maybe more powerful drivetrain. As said before the only two engine options I want are the FE or the Godzilla. If I could be persuaded into something else it would be a coyote, but the 7.3 is a better package for this truck.

Roller cam swap isn't a problem these days, just adds cost. Companies make roller cams and retrofit lifters that drop right in. Those kits, plus correct length pushrods and right valve springs.