351 Cleveland or 351 Windsor

[DavidNJ]

CHI heads bit on Windors...the difference is a water port. However, they use different intake manifolds (the CHI is unique on the intake) and different header (which is rare an may become custom or semi-custom). Otherwise, pretty similar.

The net, at the Engine Master's Challenge, the CHI head is consistent winner against everything else and used by multiple top builders.

Also the low-deck block (8.2" vs 9.2" 351 and 9.0" Chevy) is easier to package.

Hot rodding Fords are common. FEs and small blocks windsors are widely used in Mustangs and Cobras. Cleveland was available down under much longer and that is where CHI is from.

In the end, from a performance standpoint, it may be hard to tell the difference on the street. A dead stock build, nicely detailed, can be satisfying.

 

[dragogt]

Cleavland heads don't fit on Windsors, they are of 2 different engine families.

Um ever here of a boss 302??

 

[DavidNJ]

Boss 302 was a Cleveland block with Cleveland water passages. CHI makes its heads in versions for either block.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/30220_clevor_engine/index.html

http://www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm

With today's technology you can make more power than you can use in nearly any combination. The constraints are rules if racing or street registered, budget, durability, reliability, packaging, and application.

 

[irishblessing]

Unless you have stock Cleveland/Boss rules, CHI heads from Australia are three jumps ahead of anything else. They have won the engine builder's challenge, and just make more HP. Kaase had his own head sold through Summit Racing, but that is history and IMHO the ports were too big for something under 454.

First thing to decide is short deck (302s that bored/stroked to 347) or tall deck (can be over 400). Then decided intake...I am a big believer in fuel injection.

I don't think you are doing a high rpm motor, so valves, valve springs, lifters (which should still be roller), pistons, pins, rods, crank don't have to be exotic. However, you may still want to consider a shaft rocker system with a stiff pushrod. Makes for more accurate valve timing.

If you really want to go cheap, you will be in a Windsor, because that is a junkyard setup. If you are getting new heads/pistons...the CHI is hard to ignore.

Note: stock Cleveland 4V heads have ports that are too big and a bad shape. It is common to fill then and raise them.

http://www.chiheads.com.au/3v_185cc.php

yeah i saw that challenge thats what gave me the idea

 

[baddad457]

My bad, I had thought that you had something to that fact on FTE a While back..




393, 408, 427 W strokers > 351C... Check out sbftech.com, they know there stuff when it comes to ford blocks.

Nope, that was "Hemieater"

 

[baddad457]

Boss 302 was a Cleveland block with Cleveland water passages. CHI makes its heads in versions for either block.

You know its always nice to have more members here, but when guys like you come on and at first sound knowlegable then go off into left field with a statement like this it immediately raises red flags. It's a well known fact that the Boss 302 did not have a cleveland block, nor had cleveland water passages. It was a 4 bolt main 302 block with screw in core plugs, fitted with modified 4 bbl Cleveland heads. It also used a unique intake to adapt the Cleveland style heads to a 302 block. Better go back and study more about Ford engines.

 

[Mac]

Alway there to keep us all straight! Keep it up.
Dave

 

[DavidNJ]

Actually, I owned a NEW Boss 302, a 70, bought new in March 1971. You are right that he Boss 302 was a low deck 8.2" and the other Clevelands where high deck 9.2. I still have Fords race modification instructions complete with inline 4v carb. The only thing unique to intake was a Cleveland port match for an 8.2" deck height block. Obviously, I never had to mod the Boss to fit different heads, but as the links I added indicated, Clevor conversions are well documented.

That said, if you are going to the expense of the Cleveland conversion (heads, intake, headers) and aren't racing in a class requiring factory Cleveland heads, not using the CHI heads is silly IMHO. The expense and limitations of the intake and headers though may make a Twisted Wedge, AFR, or one of the others advantageous.

 

[baddad457]

Yea, it was an 8.2 deck block, but it wasn't a Cleveland design. The only thing shared with the Cleveland line was the head bolt pattern, bore spacing and motor mount & bell patterns. The intake not only had to match the ports, but the bolt angles as well. And not everyone can afford $2000 for a set of heads. Only someone "silly" with money can do that. Just owning one doesn't make you an expert in their design or construction. I've know lots of guys who "owned" cars, that other than where to put gas in, were lost otherwise.

 

[dragogt]

Nope, that was "Hemieater"

Thats right, tks for setting me straight.

 

[Mutant Pony]

Gone a couple of days and missed all the fun.
Yes, the 302 boss was a windsor based block with cleveland heads. The 335 series engines have the thermostat in the block. The 302 boss had the thermostat in the intake just like any other 302. Most aftermarket "c" heads are made to bolt to either block.
The highly sought after Australian "c" heads are from the 302c (Australia only) which is a 335 series engine.
I look up race parts at least a couple times a week, You can NOT find as many parts for a "c" as you can a "w"
High performance "w" heads are less than half the price of a single "C" head.
On the other hand, I am very happy with my "c". I didn't mean to sound like I wasn't.