Fresh 289 into B3000 not starting

[myagi]

Hi. I'm new to TRS and am hoping somebody might have an answer or two about what might be going on with my most recent V8 swap project. I can't get this darned thing started.

First I will explain that I'm no stranger to engines but admittedly this is the first Ford I've ever rebuilt.

It started with my 2000 Mazda B3000 with the somewhat enemic 3.0 litre v6. Great little truck but just lacked the FUN factor. AFter reading about some other projects, decided the v8 was something I wanted.
I decided to swap in a 1965 Mustang 289 2bbl that I was able to purchase for a very good price. Before doing the swap, I thought I might as well freshen the motor up with new rings, bearings , and a bit of a lumpy cam/valve springs, etc. ( cam is high lift but does not require special pistons or tappets )
I also pulled the stock Mitsubishi 5 speed in favour of an AOD automatic and B&M shifter.
I've got brand new 8mm plug wires, accel Super Stock coil, cap, rotor

I got everything in place last weekend and tried to fire it up but in spite of a lot of pops and burbs , the engine remains unstarted after a few hours of checking and rechecking all is in place.
The stock distributor had a Pertronix Igniter II breakerless pickup in place of the points so I swapped it out in exchange for the properly gapped points (.017") and condenser thinking this might have been part or all of my problem.
I made sure my engine was set to #1 on TDC on the compression stroke and that my plug wires are set to the firing order specified for this engine.
Tried moving distributor back and forth 10-15 degrees from where it should fire. No luck
I have lots of spark - (bright blue) on the Autolite plugs which are all gapped to .035". I have verified the engine is getting lots of fuel. (I now think the gas has washed my nicely crosshatched cylinder walls and fully realize this is less than ideal) - will try spaying some WD40 into the cylinders before trying to start again.

The rockers were all set with lots of play (probably .020") until I can verify the lifters have pumped up, the slack is adjusted out and the valves are seating properly. I havn't done a compression test yet and NO the engine is not 180' out of time.

I'm lost for answers. This is so frustrating. Has anybody else run into this problem.
(I'm going to do the comp test tomorrow if my brother-in-law finds his gauge)

PLEASE HELP

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

What cam did you put in? Some may or may not have an HO firing order which will goof you up.

 

[sparky2eh]

Seems to me since you have spark and fuel it is either timing/firing order or compression. Like 85_Ranger4x4 said depending on the cam, check the firing order:

289 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
302 (Pre-82) 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
5.0 HO 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
5.0 Truck 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
351 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

Since you said it is your first Ford build do not forget the distributor rotates counter clockwise.

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

Maybe the rotation of the firing order is wrong? Might try the same firing order but in the opposite direction. When I put my 302 together I made this mistake. Does a 289 dizzy rotate counter clock wise or clock wise?

 

[myagi]

Thanks for the quick replies. The build is using a Comp Cam DEH275 grind (dual energy) for the pre '82 SBF 289/302's . I bought matching springs for the cam as suggested but retained the stock lifters (they looked like new)

The firing order on the intake confirms the 15426378 firing order and yes the rotor rotates CCW. Specs for cam confirm same firing order. The cylinder numbering system for Ford (1-4 left, 5-8 right) took some mild rewiring of my own noodle and nearly caused an earlier Chev like placement of wires on the distributor cap but I have overcome that habit now.

I did a compression test today and found everything from 75 psi to 170 psi but figured it might be due partially to washed out cylinder walls while cranking the heck out of the blasted thing yesterday.

After throwing some WD40 into plug holes, I rechecked the compression and all were well above 100 psi.
I set the rockers (0 lash plus 1/2 turn) as per spec and I can get it to fire (albiet weakly) on 2 or three cylinders per rotation but not enough to fire up.

Again. I have lots of spark but can't be sure if its coming late or early in the comp stroke. I'm thinking late

I've read everything I can find on the web with regards to stubborn 289s and can't find anything that makes sense.

I have lots of fuel, lots of air, compression, and spark.

Does anybody know at what point the spark occurs when the points are opening ?
What I mean is there are about 10 degrees of rotation in each of the 8 lobes on the distributor where the points open (and where the spark occurs). The rest according to what I read is the dwell time when points are closed. What I could not find is does the spark occur at 1' degree opening or close to the 1/2 way point or near the end ,just before the points close again.

What I found after eyeballing the cap and the base is there is no way I can see to adjust the points to get the points to open up exactly when the rotor is in direct line with the contact on the underside of the cap. Almost like the points need a rotational up/down adjustment in addition to the in/out . Rotating the distributor as I think we will agree only changes advance/retard in relation to the stroke. Hope this makes sense.

Thanks for your help. This is so frustrating

 

[myagi]

Forgot to mention. The firing order was also double-confirmed with finger in sparkplug hole while watching lifters and rotor position

 

[sparky2eh]

Quote:The cylinder numbering system for Ford (1-4 left, 5-8 right)

That is if you are looking at the engine from the front......... Just a thought but are the points and condensor new? I have seen, many many years ago when points systems were the only system, condensors shorted internally and taking all the spark energy to ground causing no starts.

 

[dangerranger83]

I read that if you replace the cam on a sold lifter engine, you have to replace the lifters too as they wear to the cam lobes. On a roller block, you don't have to do that.

As they said, check your firing order of everything.

Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk 2

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I read that if you replace the cam on a sold lifter engine, you have to replace the lifters too as they wear to the cam lobes. On a roller block, you don't have to do that.

It would still start though, it might eventually hose the cam but it would at least run.

 

[myagi]

No. Not a solid lifter engine. I just reused the stock hydraulic lifters with a higher lift hydraulic cam and a double roller chain and sprocket set but yes, I probably should have changed the lifters out too.

Cylinder #s are verified 1-4 left and 5-8 right facing front of engine.

I just sent a detailed message to Pertronix regarding the module that was originally installed in this distributor. To save time explaining what I found out about this distributor after a closer examination, I will cut and paste from my original message. They have already replied and were unable to help other than physically examine the distributor.

Start Quote

"Hi Carl

Yes. The Igniter II pickup coil is identical to the one I have however the
number printed on the white tag is 37AE-A12B

My apologies, I gave the wrong distributor ID number. After looking at it
with a magnifying lens, I can now confirm it is a "C5AF-12127-M" FoMoCo

It shows up on several webpages as a distributor equipped on 289 engines of
several ford models between 1964 and 1966. In fact, this engine was the
original engine out of a 1965 Ford Mustang

My breaker plate looks very similar to the one in the photo you provided. I
am sending two pictures of my distributor (one with a set of points
re-installed)
As previously stated, I am now 99% confident that the spark is occuring too
late in the rotation. A check of the rotor phase/breaker cam position shows
the points opening after the rotor tip has passed by each of the sparkplug
connections in the cap. (checked by drilling large holes in an old cap to
check physical position of rotor when points are at widest point - See photo
DCSN1707)

Using an ohmmeter, I have found that when the single points set to
recommended .017" inch gap, the points actually break several degrees before
reaching the highest point on the distributor cam until they close again
several degrees later.

I'm guessing the Igniter II magnetic sensor is much more accurate on
breaking the current to the coil and causing the coil to fire a spark as the
eight points of the reluctor representing the highest points on the
distributor cam pass the sensor. Hense, and I stand to be corrected, the
spark is occurring nearest the high point of the cam and not 7-8 degrees
before like the points do.

If this is the case, what I was asking, is there a way to adjust the phase
on the sensor so that it fires earlier (like 10-15 degrees??) because right
now I believe the spark is trying to jump a larger gap between the rotor and
the sparkplug lead on the cap. I see a very weak spark on the plug when
testing the Igniter II, sometimes nothing (again - makes sense as its trying
to jump the larger gap between rotor and cap). The points create a large
blue spark on the plugs so I know the coil is OK

I'm trying to contact the original owner to see how it worked for him
because as I see it, full vacuum advance would just barely get move the
breaker plate to a position where a spark would occur that might start this
engine

Tks in advance"

End Quote


Although I have a new HEI distrib on order, I have already modified the stock unit to bring the rotor phase back to zero and I'm pretty confident I will now have it running this weekend.

Again. If anybody has seen or heard about the improper phasing of older Ford distribs (I found two mentions of it elsewhere on the web) or anything else, I'd certainly welcome the info.

 

[myagi]

Sorry. In addition the above and Sparky2eh's question, yes, the points and condenser are brand new, and properly gapped.

I know points are kind of like sending smoke signals rather than using electronic communications but I'm just trying to get it running and unlike the electronic pickup module that retrofitted to the distrib I can physically check points to verify where a spark is supposedly occurring or not

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

Are you using a timing light to set your timing? I keep thinkin your distributor isn't aligned right. Start back at square one. Pull your #1 plug, put it on TDC, stab ur distributor so the rotor is centered on the #1 electrode and then set the timing with a timing light. Something isn't right with your timing by what you've described.

 

[myagi]

Rowdy.
My apologies but My eye doesn't seem to be quick enough to catch the timing mark on the balancer when it's just cranking. I tried this already with my son on the key.
Like I asked so many others that suggested the distributor must be off one tooth.
Let's say the gear was off one tooth (which it isn't), does this really affect the starting of the engine so long as the rotor is aligned with the corresponding sparkplug (ie; #1) while the engine is on TDC on the compression stroke. If so, why ?
I know it changes the orientation of the body of the distributor in relation to the engine (so that the vacuum advance will be either left or right of the suggested location) but what else does this change. The distributor cam is in a fixed position in relation to the rotor.

Regardless, I just got notice that my new distributor is in. I'm going to try it on Sunday and get back with results. Please for me

First engine ever that has given me these problems

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

The designated electrode for the #1 cylinder is more of a guide. You can put the #1 wire on any of the electrodes as long as the firing order is correct and the rotor aligns to the #1 wire while at TDC. But the timing/rotor alignment has to be correct for the spark to be delivered at the correct time.

 

[Rowdy Fitzgerald]

Have you tried pulling the distributor, rotating the crank 1 full turn then reinstalling the distributor? (180 degrees) you might have said you tried but I havnt gone back and read back through everything again.