2.5L ('98-'01) Can you set the crank gear without removing the balancer?

[RonD]

The crank pulley also has the woodruff key lined up with crank gear woodruff key, so if you take the bolt off you can see when key way is at 12:00

 

[Dirtman]

That stupid plastic timing belt cover that has the degree marks for the balancer is pretty freaking flimsy too. You can easily wiggle it around and change where the mark is by a couple degrees in either direction. Another reason I prefer to line up the marks on the block... but I think its "good enough". All 3 gears are as close to dead on as they can be.

 

[tomw]

If you look at the nose of the crankshaft, the keyway is at the 12 o'clock position every time #1 is at TDC. In most cases, if you head is very thin(you may have to remove the radiator), you can look at the crankshaft end-on and see the keyway after removing the bolt.
On older models, the timing marks used to align are on the belt cover, removed for installation???!?!!?!!?!? FoMoCo engineers were not on their toes with this one, but the keyway info is a workaround for those.
tom

 

[Dirtman]

Ok so I pulled the number 1 plug just to verify TDC. Its at TDC. Cam gear is on the mark, oil pump gear is on the mark, balancer is on the mark before installing the belt.

But when I looked, the exhaust valve is open. Is this just how the cam is made to be timed when installing the belt?

Like mentioned, TDC is TDC if the cam isn't attached and if the marks are all on before installing the belt how can this be wrong?

 

[Uncle Gump]

I appears that the piston is closer to TDC of the exhaust stroke opposed to compression stroke. Even at that cam timing appears to be off some. The exhaust valve should be nearly closed at TDC and the intake valve should be starting to open. Not have the exhaust valve full open.

It's been years since I have fooled with one of these... but I remember a dot on the face of the cam sprocket that lined up with the mark on the cover. But as I said... it's been years. So are you sure you're using the right mark to set cam timing?

 

[Dirtman]

I appears that the piston is closer to TDC of the exhaust stroke opposed to compression stroke. Even at that cam timing appears to be off some. The exhaust valve should be nearly closed at TDC and the intake valve should be starting to open. Not have the exhaust valve full open.

It's been years since I have fooled with one of these... but I remember a dot on the face of the cam sprocket that lined up with the mark on the cover. But as I said... it's been years. So are you sure you're using the right mark to set cam timing?

I cannot find any other mark on the cam gear. I understand what you are saying, if i was timing this with a distributor I'd sware its 180 out. But there is a diamond on the cam, and a diamond on the inner cover. I get you, but there's nothing else? How can you screw this up?

I agree its putting it at TDC exhaust and not compression but the marks are the marks. Either the marks are wrong, or im just plain stupid? And i am waaaay open to being called stupid.

If i were to turn the cam to have the valves closed aka compression... the timing mark is way off??

And you stated before, compression or exhaust TDC isnt set until the cam is on... so cam was on after crank TDC and this is what i get.

 

[Uncle Gump]

Have you tried cursing at it?

 

[Dirtman]

The reason this is driving me nuts, I've done this a ton of times. But on old carbed pinto engines. On a 74' I could literally f**k up and just keep fiddling with it till the engine ran good cause the timing belt was open with nothing in the way. I seriously did a couple using no marks and only the dipstick as a straight edge to line up the gears. This engine is "new" so it can't go together wrong without spending 3 hours taking crap apart again to get to the belt.... I'm not gonna be satisfied till i know its right because all the crap in the way SUCKS to remove again if its wrong.

 

[Dirtman]

Have you tried cursing at it?

I knew you would stoop to my level one day. We are now best friends.

 

[Uncle Gump]

I agree... I did more then a few of these back in the day. Don't remember there ever being an issue.

 

[Uncle Gump]

I appears that the piston is closer to TDC of the exhaust stroke opposed to compression stroke. Even at that cam timing appears to be off some. The exhaust valve should be nearly closed at TDC and the intake valve should be starting to open. Not have the exhaust valve full open.

It's been years since I have fooled with one of these... but I remember a dot on the face of the cam sprocket that lined up with the mark on the cover. But as I said... it's been years. So are you sure you're using the right mark to set cam timing?

So it appears that there are two marks on the cam gear...

At least you know now!

 

[tomw]

That diamond is not the cam timing mark that I am familiar with. All, no exception, cam sprockets had a triangle on the edge of the sprocket. That triangle was aligned with the mark on the front of the head. The mark on the belt guide is not the one to use as far as I know.
Take a bit of cleaner, wet a shop rag, and wipe the front edge of the sprocket. If you have removed the sprocket, could it have been installed with the mark at the back? I don't remember if the design allowed for install thataway or if the belt would have been way out of position, so offer it as one explanation if you can't find the triangle.
I think the diamond is the mark on the auxiliary shaft, but don't be the farm on that one.
If you can see the sprocket keyway, I think it is supposed to be at noon also.
The cam lobes should both have their followers on the 'heel' of the lobe, and the exhaust valve should be about 180 from being on the lobe tip. IOW, the piston should go down from TDC to BDC, the exhaust valve open about THEN, and then the piston come back to TDC, pushing exhaust out through the exhaust valve. THEN the intake valve should be opened as the piston starts downward... fill with fuel:air, then close ~BDC, compress, back up to TDC FIRE!!!! and onwards. You can tell by looking what the lobes are doing/going to do to the valves.
tom

 

[Dirtman]

That diamond is not the cam timing mark that I am familiar with. All, no exception, cam sprockets had a triangle on the edge of the sprocket. That triangle was aligned with the mark on the front of the head. The mark on the belt guide is not the one to use as far as I know.
Take a bit of cleaner, wet a shop rag, and wipe the front edge of the sprocket. If you have removed the sprocket, could it have been installed with the mark at the back? I don't remember if the design allowed for install thataway or if the belt would have been way out of position, so offer it as one explanation if you can't find the triangle.
I think the diamond is the mark on the auxiliary shaft, but don't be the farm on that one.
If you can see the sprocket keyway, I think it is supposed to be at noon also.
The cam lobes should both have their followers on the 'heel' of the lobe, and the exhaust valve should be about 180 from being on the lobe tip. IOW, the piston should go down from TDC to BDC, the exhaust valve open about THEN, and then the piston come back to TDC, pushing exhaust out through the exhaust valve. THEN the intake valve should be opened as the piston starts downward... fill with fuel:air, then close ~BDC, compress, back up to TDC FIRE!!!! and onwards. You can tell by looking what the lobes are doing/going to do to the valves.
tom

Thanks for the follow up. I got the issue sorted out. RonD pointed out to me that the cam gear and aux gear are actually the same part so they both have a diamond mark, and a triangle mark. I had the cam gear lined up using the diamond mark and not the triangle mark. Aux gear lines up using the diamond, cam lines up using the triangle. Just a dumb oversight on my part.

 

[sheep herder]

 

[Dirtman]

Get back in the bucket!