in trouble-too lean

odeek9 · Apr 20, 2014

Yeah, that's the best idea and I was figuring around $100. I just would like to avoid the 80 miles round trip if I can since I don't trust the truck

RonD · Apr 20, 2014

Actually, no they don't.
They do have equipment to look at the numbers the computer and sensors provide, but generally they will follow protocol which will have them replace parts that are not the problem until problem is solved.
You, of course, will have to pay for all the swapped parts as they trial and error replacements, so pretty much the same as you would do.

First off sensors and controls rarely fail, not never, just rarely.
Electronic automotive systems are often diagnosed one way.........it is the "shoot the messenger" method of diagnostics, lol.
Dealers and independents both use this method.
If computer turns on CEL and you get a Lean code, most techs "shoot the messenger" and replace O2 sensor, WTF, that's what Ford will do, could be a vacuum leak, but what the heck, not our money, lets just replace the part that "told us" of a the problem, the one part that probably IS WORKING since it reported a problem, lol.

Now in fairness, O2 sensors are like spark plugs in that they do wear out, so replacing an older O2 sensor doesn't cost that much and like a fuel filter change it probably needs it and certainly won't hurt.

If you get an older Ford tech that has a good basic understanding of how an engine works, looking at the numbers just points him in a direction to narrow down the possible causes.
If they do swap sensors or controls ask for the old ones back, there are probably good and you can use them if a sensor or control ever does fail

Mikel89us · Apr 20, 2014

Ron, i worked at a dealership, they follow the procedures in the book, and 90% of the time they will find the problem before ever replacing a part. Also, if they replace a part, and it does not fix the problem, they cannot charge you for it. they will have to put your old part back on and eat the labor costs. If you pay for it, its your own fault for not justifying their reasoning for replacing every part.

odeek9 · Apr 20, 2014

Mikel89us said:
Ron, i worked at a dealership, they follow the procedures in the book, and 90% of the time they will find the problem before ever replacing a part. Also, if they replace a part, and it does not fix the problem, they cannot charge you for it. they will have to put your old part back on and eat the labor costs. If you pay for it, its your own fault for not justifying their reasoning for replacing every part.

Now what to do? Two conflicting opinions. I just ran the scan and #41 (too lean-I know it doesn't make sense as I'm guzzling gas) and it's gone. I did disconnect it driving that 50 miles home and there seemed to be no dfference other than I didn't have the cutting out problem which I guess is a big difference. But when I got home last night code 41 still showed. Today I plugged the sensor back in and got no #41. I don't know-I don't have a clue as to what I'm doing other than what you guys have told me.
I think that the first thing I'm going to do now is get a new EGR valve as all of the bad codes for a year have been to do with the EGR. They have one at Amazon for my truck for 40 bucks which is a lot cheaper than the others-I hope that it's halfway good.
Then I'll run the codes again, maybe replace a couple of the parts that are under 40 bucks or so-remember I'm on SS Disability and one poor guy especially in Calif.- and see what happens

adsm08 · Apr 20, 2014

Well Ron, I am by no means an "old tech" and that is certainly not how I do things.

If the cutting out stopped with the sensor unplugged then there is probably an issue with the sensor, but it may not solve your whole problem. I would continue diag before replacing it.

odeek9 · Apr 20, 2014

adsm08 said:
Well Ron, I am by no means an "old tech" and that is certainly not how I do things.

If the cutting out stopped with the sensor unplugged then there is probably an issue with the sensor, but it may not solve your whole problem. I would continue diag before replacing it.

Ads you and a couple of other guys have have really stood by me on this issue-makes one feel good to know some people are still around who enjoy helping without getting anything in return other than the satisfaction of helping. This forum is really nice.
Now to the question and it's rather subjective on your parts: if I'm going to buy 2 other components along with the EGR and O2 sensor (requires a special tool to remove doesn't it?) what 2 parts would be the best to buy? I know that there are quite a few parts involved but I have to do this gradually. Even with a relatively new engine along with everything I had to buy after that (alternator, radiator, starter, etc.) all of the emission stuff is ancient. Any thoughts on what should be my priorities?

adsm08 · Apr 20, 2014

For a lean code? Intake gaskets.

The oxygen sensor doesn't require a special tool, but the O2 sensor socket does make it easier. A 22mm wrench can be used.

RonD · Apr 20, 2014

adsm08 you are an "old tech", age aside, you rely on common sense then add the technology.
"New techs" rely on technology only, common sense seems to be in short supply, I blame the training, "garbage in-garbage out".

They would replace the coil and ICM before checking the firing order, and maybe never would, just tell customer engine needs a rebuild, lol.
Clogged exhaust..........don't even get me started

Electronics made engines more reliable and efficient, mechanics of how the engine works is still the same.

odeek9
I would pull out plugs again.
Clean tip on each then replace
Disconnect coil
Crank engine
Pull out spark plugs and check each for the amount of fuel, looking for a stuck closed injector-dry plug, or stuck open injector-over wet plug.
All spark plugs should be equally wet with fuel.

On the fuel rail there will be the Fuel Pressure regulator(FPR), it has a vacuum hose, pull it off and check it fuel or fuel smell, diaphragm in FPRs can leak this sucks fuel into intake causes lower MPG without fuel "leak".

With engine warmed up and idling, remove vacuum hose from EGR, there should be no vacuum suction on this line at idle, if there is then EGR control is bad.
Now put another vacuum hose on EGR and suck on it, idle should start stumbling, if you hold it long enough engine could die, but make sure EGR valve holds the vacuum, i.e. you don't have to keep sucking on hose.

Check the MAP sensors vacuum line, easy to do and could be the source of the problem.

Disconnect batteries Negative cable for at least 5 minutes to reboot computer, or if you have a scanner reset it, not just clear it, needs a reboot.

odeek9 · Apr 20, 2014

RonD said:
adsm08 you are an "old tech", age aside, you rely on common sense then add the technology.
"New techs" rely on technology only, common sense seems to be in short supply, I blame the training, "garbage in-garbage out".

They would replace the coil and ICM before checking the firing order, and maybe never would, just tell customer engine needs a rebuild, lol.
Clogged exhaust..........don't even get me started

Electronics made engines more reliable and efficient, mechanics of how the engine works is still the same.

odeek9
I would pull out plugs again.
Clean tip on each then replace
Disconnect coil
Crank engine
Pull out spark plugs and check each for the amount of fuel, looking for a stuck closed injector-dry plug, or stuck open injector-over wet plug.
All spark plugs should be equally wet with fuel.

On the fuel rail there will be the Fuel Pressure regulator(FPR), it has a vacuum hose, pull it off and check it fuel or fuel smell, diaphragm in FPRs can leak this sucks fuel into intake causes lower MPG without fuel "leak".

With engine warmed up and idling, remove vacuum hose from EGR, there should be no vacuum suction on this line at idle, if there is then EGR control is bad.
Now put another vacuum hose on EGR and suck on it, idle should start stumbling, if you hold it long enough engine could die, but make sure EGR valve holds the vacuum, i.e. you don't have to keep sucking on hose.

Check the MAP sensors vacuum line, easy to do and could be the source of the problem.

Disconnect batteries Negative cable for at least 5 minutes to reboot computer, or if you have a scanner reset it, not just clear it, needs a reboot.

Great!!! Thanks so much

RonD · Apr 20, 2014

odeek9 said:
....................... Any thoughts on what should be my priorities?

A voltage/ohm meter is under $30 and pretty much every sensor or control can be tested with one of these, all the Volts and OHMs for each sensor or control is listed somewhere for comparing test results.
Vacuum meter is $25, old school but still one of the better tools for general engine condition.
Read here for how-to/results:
http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

O2 sensor is one that can not be tested with volt or ohm meter, well not quite true, it can be tested, the problem is if it is bad then you would get a CEL code that says "O2 is bad", lol, no misunderstanding that.
So if you test it's voltage it would show correct 0.2-0.7voltage range but it is incorrect if engine was running rich, O2 is not IDing correct oxygen content, so it is bad but showing correct voltage.

odeek9 · Apr 21, 2014

RonD said:
A voltage/ohm meter is under $30 and pretty much every sensor or control can be tested with one of these, all the Volts and OHMs for each sensor or control is listed somewhere for comparing test results.
Vacuum meter is $25, old school but still one of the better tools for general engine condition.
Read here for how-to/results:
http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html

O2 sensor is one that can not be tested with volt or ohm meter, well not quite true, it can be tested, the problem is if it is bad then you would get a CEL code that says "O2 is bad", lol, no misunderstanding that.
So if you test it's voltage it would show correct 0.2-0.7voltage range but it is incorrect if engine was running rich, O2 is not IDing correct oxygen content, so it is bad but showing correct voltage.

Ron I saved this list, along with part of your previous post, in order to run the tests-took some work on your part! I have a volt/ohm meter, & a simple vacuum gauge. I'll let you know how it all turns out-I also ordered an EGR valve and O2 sensor.

Mikel89us · Apr 21, 2014

Comments like some of these are why people don't trust dealerships.. I'm not saying all mechanics do things right, but where I worked, we had diagnostic books (most of the information can be found online now) with flow charts, and they used sensor tests, because you can test them without fancy electronics. A simple digital volt ohm meter will do all the necessary tests. The only sensor you can not test with it is the oxygen sensor. And if you follow flow charts properly, you will find the right answer without ever changing a part.

RonD · Apr 21, 2014

Mikel89us said:
Comments like some of these are why people don't trust dealerships.. I'm not saying all mechanics do things right, but where I worked, we had diagnostic books (most of the information can be found online now) with flow charts, and they used sensor tests, because you can test them without fancy electronics. A simple digital volt ohm meter will do all the necessary tests. The only sensor you can not test with it is the oxygen sensor. And if you follow flow charts properly, you will find the right answer without ever changing a part.

People who don't trust dealership shops, Ford or others, don't get that from comments like mine, or even ones like this:
http://www.therangerstation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150825

They get it from dealing with dealerships that have given them what they perceive as sub-standard service for above standard price.

Professional Shops, independent or dealerships, have to warranty the labor and parts for any service, so they only use trusted parts that usually cost more and their labor needs to be done in a specific way and documented in most cases so if there is a problem after customer gets vehicle back the repair procedure can be looked at to see what went wrong, all of that takes time, and time = $$.

And that's what you are paying for, professional service, and people that stand behind the service and parts they provide.
The problem is in the perception from the customers point of view of the cost and service provided.
There are ripoffs in all professions, that's just human nature, I think dealerships have less ripoffs than independent shops but there are still some dealerships that overcharge for the provided service and parts.

DIYers often don't understand the costs involved so think any professional pricing is "over the top", lol.
"I can get that part on Ebay for $20!!!!", "what a ripoff"
They, of course, are their own warranty department:
"oh sh*t, should have paid the extra for the OEM part" :icon_rofl:

Mikel89us · Apr 21, 2014

^^ I couldn't agree more

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