TTB Help

indnajns · Jul 22, 2014

Hello! I'm hoping you all can point me in the right direction. We've acquired a '97 Ranger XLT that's had its fair share of meetings with ditches. More than we realized, actually. (Should've backed away politely, gotten in the car, and let the tires squeal as we got away. Yeah, one of those situations.)

Anyways, the problem is the driver's side axle. It seems to be "shifted" aka "badly bent", but we can't find any decent pictures or info. It's a 2WD, not 4WD and everything I've come up with so far seems to relate to 4WD. Does anybody have some clear pictures of what's supposed to line up where and a decent explanation of the TTB axle system? While my dad and I have worked on cars for decades, we're not that familiar with this particular system. We've just spent two and a half weeks chasing a "ghost" where the clutch was concerned. (another result of ditch impact.) I'd like this to not take as long, please. We need to get this thing down off the jacks so my son can go get a job! (hey, I can dream, can't I?)

Our pit crew: Head Mechanic - DOD (Dear Old Dad), Second in command - Mom (Me), third hand - #1 Son (aka "The nut behind the wheel").

Thanks!

Campbell5149 · Jul 22, 2014

they managed to bend an I beam? I'm assuming you've got a twin I beam truck

bobbywalter · Jul 22, 2014

tech info.....2wd = tib

if the engine k is ok and rails half ass straight replacing the brackets and i beam is a easy straight forward job.....10 minutes staring at it next to a truck that has had an easier life will make it all self explanatory.

around here the beams are 30-80 bux and about a 2-6 hour job depending on rot etc that bust or need torching.

likely need a radius arm or two and rear mounts as well.

indnajns · Jul 22, 2014

Well, after some more staring at it ... on the driver's side, there's an arm going towards the back into a cross brace. The cross brace is bent-in a good inch there. Unfortunately, the cross brace is riveted in. Sigh. Otherwise, we'd disconnect it and beat it straight. That would get us a little closer to our goal. Any ideas?

And thanks for the quick response!

martin · Jul 22, 2014

remove the rivets and replace them with bolts after you straighten it out. might be easier to get another not bent piece from the scrap yard.

Spott · Jul 22, 2014

General wisdom is to replace the rivets with the next larger size bolt.

indnajns · Jul 22, 2014

Don't think we've got the tools to drill out such large rivets. The latest thinking is to pull that arm out and put a 1" - 1 1/4" spacer on it. But it's got unreal camber and caster and toe-in problems that we've piddled with today, and everybody's tired now (more like sick and tired), so the garage door has been pulled down for the night. Thanks for all the suggestions.

black_demon69 · Jul 22, 2014

indnajns said:
Don't think we've got the tools to drill out such large rivets. The latest thinking is to pull that arm out and put a 1" - 1 1/4" spacer on it. But it's got unreal camber and caster and toe-in problems that we've piddled with today, and everybody's tired now (more like sick and tired), so the garage door has been pulled down for the night. Thanks for all the suggestions.

just use angle grinder to grind rivet heads off and a punch and hammer to pound rest of rivet out... then replace with grade 8 or higher bolts locktite threads for good measure.

adsm08 · Jul 22, 2014

Don't drill the rivets.

My preferred method is to cut a cross in them with a grinder and then chisel the head off with an air hammer. If an air hammer is not available then I will still cut the cross, and then just run back and forth over the head with the edge of the wheel until the head is almost gone, then knock them in with a hammer and punch.

adsm08 · Jul 22, 2014

black_demon69 said:
just use angle grinder to grind rivet heads off and a punch and hammer to pound rest of rivet out... then replace with grade 8 or higher bolts locktite threads for good measure.

That's two in a week dude.

Keep this up and I am going to give you a black belt and a katana.

indnajns · Jul 24, 2014

Thanks for all the replies. The engineer in the group (DOD) said it's usually not wise to replace rivets with bolts because of the strength issue. (rivets are much stronger than bolts of the same size.) So, a rather redneck method was used to pull the cross beam straight. (it involved a post and a chain, but I won't go into details. I leave the guys alone for a little bit and see what happens?)

Anyways, you can call this thread closed. I appreciate your all's time. The clutch is finally working; with a new bushing and a little more tweaking the wheel will be tracking true, the teenager has already installed (UGLY) seat covers and some neon lights. (very instrumental in making the vehicle go, of course.) This thing might actually hit the road in my lifetime! (it better. somebody's got to earn some money to pay for all these parts!)

Just as an FYI for any future readers (and slightly off topic): We had to replace the clutch master cylinder and the line. Of course, then we had to bleed it. No go. Clutch not releasing. So we bled it some more. No change. Go online. That's how I found your forum. Forum wisdom was that Rangers are hard to bleed, due to the stupid angle of the master cylinder. (hope the idiot engineer was fired that came up with that idea.) So we bled it some more. And some more. And some more, trying every variation DOD could come up with from his many years of mechanic-ing. Nothing seemed to work. We were about to round up the tools to pull the transmission (three days we've been fighting this!) when Dad said, let's try one more thing. So, he's under the truck doing the bleeding, #1 Son is behind the wheel pumping the pedal, I'm watching the reservoir and holding the bleeder jar. Lots of pumping, lots of fluid, not a lot of improvement. #1 Son is too busy texting to be paying attention to what he's doing, so I switch places with him. First thing I do is throw out the stupid floor mat he's got shoved up in there. It kept catching on the pedal. Pump, pump, no improvement. So I pull the carpet back, as it's loose and catching too. That's when I see the floor weld - it's split open and obviously pushed in towards the pedal. You have got to be kidding me. At some point in the past, this truck has met with a ditch with such force that the wheel has been shoved into the firewall, pushing the firewall back into the path of the pedal just enough to keep the clutch from releasing, even thought it felt as if the pedal was going to the floor. Not having driven it any, since #1 Son managed to wreck it ten minutes after he bought it, none of us realized the pedal wasn't going all the way down. A sledge hammer and a large wooden stick fixed that problem. Clutch now works. Sometimes you gotta look outside the box. Sigh.

enjr44 · Jul 24, 2014

Just an FYI, there isn't much grade 8 bolts and locktite won't hold together!
Second, once something is bent, just bending it back usually won't keep it there.

bobbywalter · Jul 27, 2014

indnajns said:
Thanks for all the replies. The engineer in the group (DOD) said it's usually not wise to replace rivets with bolts because of the strength issue. (rivets are much stronger than bolts of the same size.) So, a rather redneck method was used to pull the cross beam straight. (it involved a post and a chain, but I won't go into details. I leave the guys alone for a little bit and see what happens?)

Anyways, you can call this thread closed. I appreciate your all's time. The clutch is finally working; with a new bushing and a little more tweaking the wheel will be tracking true, the teenager has already installed (UGLY) seat covers and some neon lights. (very instrumental in making the vehicle go, of course.) This thing might actually hit the road in my lifetime! (it better. somebody's got to earn some money to pay for all these parts!)

Just as an FYI for any future readers (and slightly off topic): We had to replace the clutch master cylinder and the line. Of course, then we had to bleed it. No go. Clutch not releasing. So we bled it some more. No change. Go online. That's how I found your forum. Forum wisdom was that Rangers are hard to bleed, due to the stupid angle of the master cylinder. (hope the idiot engineer was fired that came up with that idea.) So we bled it some more. And some more. And some more, trying every variation DOD could come up with from his many years of mechanic-ing. Nothing seemed to work. We were about to round up the tools to pull the transmission (three days we've been fighting this!) when Dad said, let's try one more thing. So, he's under the truck doing the bleeding, #1 Son is behind the wheel pumping the pedal, I'm watching the reservoir and holding the bleeder jar. Lots of pumping, lots of fluid, not a lot of improvement. #1 Son is too busy texting to be paying attention to what he's doing, so I switch places with him. First thing I do is throw out the stupid floor mat he's got shoved up in there. It kept catching on the pedal. Pump, pump, no improvement. So I pull the carpet back, as it's loose and catching too. That's when I see the floor weld - it's split open and obviously pushed in towards the pedal. You have got to be kidding me. At some point in the past, this truck has met with a ditch with such force that the wheel has been shoved into the firewall, pushing the firewall back into the path of the pedal just enough to keep the clutch from releasing, even thought it felt as if the pedal was going to the floor. Not having driven it any, since #1 Son managed to wreck it ten minutes after he bought it, none of us realized the pedal wasn't going all the way down. A sledge hammer and a large wooden stick fixed that problem. Clutch now works. Sometimes you gotta look outside the box. Sigh.

rivets are not stronger.....they are cheaper and time/cost effective in the manufacturing environment.

a stout hardened washer and grade 8 bolt is much stronger in holding then the oem rivet.

if you know how to use a grinder, rivet removal is a non issue.

aspevacek · Jul 28, 2014

Every decent lift kit put under a TTB or TIB suspension on a ford truck requires removal of the rivits and installing bolts. I have had a Skyjacker and James Duff lift kit both require removing the rivits and replacing them with grade 8 bolts.

Some pictures of what is considered bent parts on the vehicle could help determine what all is needing to be fixed.

cvar · Jul 28, 2014

I've read that Grade 8 (and 5) bolts are much stronger than rivets, but only if they almost fill in the hole and if the nut is sufficiently tight to prevent play (ie, preloaded). Rivets can be very snug indeed, but that clamping is not guaranteed, and so rivets are considered bearing joints (ie, shear, not tensile failure). Structural rivets are usually made from carbon steel (A502), but who knows what steel Ford used? Grade 8 bolts have twice the shear strength of A502 rivets.

See this excellent technical document: www.boltcouncil.org/files/2ndEditionGuide.pdf

Chart of Rivets vs. A490 (grade 8) and A325 (grade 5) bolts (from above document) shows strength (stress) vs. deformation (strain):

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