Was reading my Haynes about caster, have a question?

[4x4junkie]

its pretty simple to align these trucks a tech would have to be either stupid or in a hurry/lazy to not do at least a decent job.

You apparently don't have a clue how common this is.


A buddy of mine came to me after trying to get his truck aligned 5 (that's FIVE) times by such so called "professionals" and by this time half the tread had already been burned off his front tires in barely 5000 miles. Not a single one of them had a damned clue what to do.
After fixing problems with his steering (and switching his fawked front tires with the rears), I then aligned it using my $10 tape measure, a homemade telescoping rod, (both for checking toe) a small carpenter's level (to check camber, which is fairly easy to do by eyeball as well), and a steel plate & some metal dowels put under the tires (to eliminate any suspension bind between the front tires).
Took it around the block, it pulled to the right a bit. Gave it another half-degree caster on that side, now it tracks straight as an arrow when you let go of the wheel.

Then 3 other times I've had to fix problems with pulling to one side because 'tards (again) can't figure out how to put the proper bushings in to set BOTH camber AND caster properly (often accompanied by some shpeil about oh how "we spent all this time trying to get it as best that we could" and "that's normal for TTB", yet all they ever did was twiddle around the bushing that was already in there, never bothering to switch it with one that was correct).
A $100,000 computerized alignment machine is only as good as the idiot using it.


I've been doing my own alignments on all my vehicles for 18 years, and would have no qualms whatsoever taking a 3000 mile trip up & down the coast on a brand new $800 set of tires. I have never once had a set of tires not make it at least 25,000 miles before reaching 50% treadwear (evenly worn, too).
As long as you have some understanding of each parameter involved, it most certainly is possible to perform an exceptionally good alignment at home using plain, simple tools (it's not rocket science, really).


.

 

[rickcdewitt]

You apparently don't have a clue how common this is.


A buddy of mine came to me after trying to get his truck aligned 5 (that's FIVE) times by such so called "professionals" and by this time half the tread had already been burned off his front tires in barely 5000 miles. Not a single one of them had a damned clue what to do.

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sure i know there are a lot of places to avoid and that they use lifting your truck as an excuse.maybe the thing to do in your area is give the tech a tip to get the truck in the range you want while the company takes a bit of a loss but the tech is still happy,or at the very least get the spec printout and take it back to the crappy chain tire store you go to and tell them it pulls and you want more caster on one side or another.people doing the stupid f-150 coil mods with no drop brakets and other mods that jack the angles are just asking for trouble at the shop.aligning these trucks can take way too long some times and thats when you run into trouble. your buddy must be a bit of an idiot or has a bad attitude at shops to not get it right after 5 times.techs are human you have to work with them. but like we both said its not that hard i just don't see how you could get more than just an "acceptable alignment" at home.i wish i had a 100,000 dollar machine that would tell me what bushing to use after you get a base reading from a zero bushing but i just twiddle the bushing around and replace it if its not going to work.i played with several caster settings on my truck before i was happy with it on an alignment machine.maybe this is where the adjustable bushings would come in at home but they will still not tell you what caster you are winding up with.when i first lifted my truck i put the caster on the deep end with the 8" wheels,when i switched to the 10" wheels i put it on the shallow end since they swing up and down more than the stockers.those adjustable bushing charts assume that a zero bushing actually puts the tire at zero when a lot of trucks aren't.so you really don't know what the caster split is or where the caster is.it really isen't that important an angle but i drive a lot of miles and i want my truck to behave just right.bottom line is don't put your truck on the ragged edge of alignability,pick a good shop,and understand the before and after print out so you know what they actually did.i have done plenty of garage floor alignments and every one of them needed fine tuning once i got it in the shop.not that that would matter with 35's,you go over a few heavy bumps and the toe is probably out.even with 33's its not hard for me to do a trail alignment.its a crap shoot some times whether or not you'll get a good alignment but most of the people here with only a rudimentary understanding and familiarity of this stuff could easily lose patience and botch the job worse than the techs would(at least a shop will get camber and toe right).i do agree with you in that if you took the time to get it close yourself with the adjustable bushings the chances are much better of getting it right on at the shop.you need to fight to get a good alignment but unless you have a caster gauge you can use with out taking the wheel off i'de still go to a shop.

 

[metalmacguyver]

Sure I know there are a lot of places to avoid and that they use lifting your truck as an excuse. Maybe the thing to do in your area is give the tech a tip to get the truck in the range you want while the company takes a bit of a loss but the tech is still happy, or at the very least get the spec printout and take it back to the crappy chain tire store you go to and tell them it pulls and you want more caster on one side or another. People doing the stupid f-150 coil mods with no drop brackets and other mods that jack the angles are just asking for trouble at the shop. Aligning these trucks can take way too long some times and that’s when you run into trouble. Your buddy must be a bit of an idiot or has a bad attitude at shops to not get it right after 5 times. Techs are human you have to work with them. But like we both said its not that hard I just don't see how you could get more than just an "acceptable alignment" at home.

I wish I had a 100,000 dollar machine that would tell me what bushing to use after you get a base reading from a zero bushing but I just twiddle the bushing around and replace it if it’s not going to work. I played with several caster settings on my truck before I was happy with it on an alignment machine. Maybe this is where the adjustable bushings would come in at home but they will still not tell you what caster you are winding up with. When I first lifted my truck I put the caster on the deep end with the 8" wheels, when I switched to the 10" wheels I put it on the shallow end since they swing up and down more than the stockers.

Those adjustable bushing charts assume that a zero bushing actually puts the tire at zero when a lot of trucks aren’t. So you really don't know what the caster split is or where the caster is. It really isn’t that important an angle but I drive a lot of miles and I want my truck to behave just right. Bottom line is don't put your truck on the ragged edge of alignability, pick a good shop, and understand the before and after print out so you know what they actually did. I have done plenty of garage floor alignments and every one of them needed fine tuning once I got it in the shop. Not that that would matter with 35's, you go over a few heavy bumps and the toe is probably out. Even with 33's its not hard for me to do a trail alignment .

Its a crap shoot some times whether or not you'll get a good alignment but most of the people here with only a rudimentary understanding and familiarity of this stuff could easily lose patience and botch the job worse than the techs would (at least a shop will get camber and toe right). I do agree with you in that if you took the time to get it close yourself with the adjustable bushings the chances are much better of getting it right on at the shop. You need to fight to get a good alignment but unless you have a caster gauge you can use with out taking the wheel off I’d still go to a shop.

I fixed it for you.

 

[4x4junkie]

Maybe the thing to do in your area is give the tech a tip to get the truck in the range you want while the company takes a bit of a loss but the tech is still happy, or at the very least get the spec printout and take it back to the crappy chain tire store you go to and tell them it pulls and you want more caster on one side or another.

Yeah, do that and they look at you funny and then just tell you that's "normal", they can't do anything about it and to live with it If you have to give them "tips", and know it needs more caster on one side, WTF?? Why not do it yourself???

Your buddy must be a bit of an idiot or has a bad attitude at shops to not get it right after 5 times.

Ummm... no, my buddy is not an idiot or has a bad attitude
If anything he's too passive (and is probably why the fucktards at these shops had the opportunity to bend him over the way they did)

Those adjustable bushing charts assume that a zero bushing actually puts the tire at zero when a lot of trucks aren’t. So you really don't know what the caster split is or where the caster is. It really isn’t that important an angle but I drive a lot of miles and I want my truck to behave just right.

Does it really matter what the damn numbers are when the truck tracks straight ahead, the wheel quickly returns back to center when you let go of it, the tires don't wear funny, and it doesn't shimmy/shake/etc.?

Maybe this is where the adjustable bushings would come in at home

Wow, you're quick!

Not that that would matter with 35's, you go over a few heavy bumps and the toe is probably out.

You saying I leave my bolts loose under there or something?? Why do you think my toe would be out after a few bumps? (and for the record, I drive over 3 foot tall BOULDERS, not "bumps" as you put it)

Its a crap shoot some times whether or not you'll get a good alignment but most of the people here with only a rudimentary understanding and familiarity of this stuff could easily lose patience and botch the job worse than the techs would (at least a shop will get camber and toe right). I do agree with you in that if you took the time to get it close yourself with the adjustable bushings the chances are much better of getting it right on at the shop. You need to fight to get a good alignment but unless you have a caster gauge you can use with out taking the wheel off I’d still go to a shop.

Well then, you can go ahead and keep shelling out your $$$ to all the alignment guys around you that seem to be so competent, and I'll just stick to using my tape measure, k,thanks.


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[Totalled]

No, it is the lazy/ignorant attitude of the shops. When I was in auto shop in high school, I asked the instructor why I saw so many fords driving around with negative camber.. didn't that wear out tires quickly? He just said, "that's normal for Fords." I was like, the spec on the chart isn't for negative camber. He came back with "it's just a POS ford, why should a shop spend more on labor to fix it than they can get for an alignment just setting the toe?"

Ignorant owners plus lazy shops = $$$ ahead doing it your damn self.

 

[rickcdewitt]

I fixed it for you.

thanks for the paragraphs its been ten years since english class

 

[rickcdewitt]

Yeah, do that and they look at you funny and then just tell you that's "normal", they can't do anything about it and to live with it If you have to give them "tips", and know it needs more caster on one side, WTF?? Why not do it yourself???

sorry you don't know any good shops

Ummm... no, my buddy is not an idiot or has a bad attitude
If anything he's too passive (and is probably why the fucktards at these shops had the opportunity to bend him over the way they did)

i know what you are saying but he should have got the picture after a couple shops

Does it really matter what the damn numbers are when the truck tracks straight ahead, the wheel quickly returns back to center when you let go of it, the tires don't wear funny, and it doesn't shimmy/shake/etc.?

going back to guess work

Wow, you're quick!

hardly just dealing with an ass of a mod

You saying I leave my bolts loose under there or something?? Why do you think my toe would be out after a few bumps? (and for the record, I drive over 3 foot tall BOULDERS, not "bumps" as you put it)

your d35 isen't special its parts bend as easy as any other

Well then, you can go ahead and keep shelling out your $$$ to all the alignment guys around you that seem to be so competent, and I'll just stick to using my tape measure, k,thanks.

thankfully enough i do know a couple good shops but i align it myself

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the last paragraph(thanks magyver) says it all.its a valid point and i don't see whats got you so worked up.

 

[metalmacguyver]

thanks for the paragraphs its been ten years since english class

It makes it easier to read long posts which is especially important when talking about tech stuff like this. I get lost and find myself skipping lines when theres 4" of straight text on the page.

AllenD's posts are really easy to read.

 

[4x4junkie]

OMFG!!

I'm done here.

 

[AllanD]

that extra line feed to seperate paragraphs does make it easy to read

Not to quibble but on caster simply saying "like a shopping cart" could be misleading.

The way you get positive caster is to move the upper balljoint to the rear.

and it isn't so moch as measuring from the balljoint axis (commonly called "kingpin axis")
as it is from vertical buy even that is kinda slippery....

What caster can be described as is "Camber change with steering deflection"

And what CAUSES the self-centering is odd to some people...

But what causes the self-centering is the simple fact that as the wheel is
turned the tires get tilted up on one edge or corner of the tread and the
weight of the vehicle wants to push that tire down.

You'll notice on a car with manual steering and LOTS of caster it takes considerable force to turn the wheels off center and that force increases the further out you turn.


Caster really has little real effect on handling but it does have a profound effect on "feedback" that the driver gets, the more you have the easier it is to feel what
the front tires are doing.
To further describe this effect you'll get on a fast car with lots of caster is that as you approach the limit of adhesion and the tire reaches it's maximum slip angle you'll feel the
steering get "light". at that point the slightest increase in load on the tire, increased power, brake or turning tighter and the vehicle will instantly turn into a tobaggin
with all the handling of a pallet sliding across a frozen lake.

this effect is desireable because you KNOW where you are relative to the limi of adhesion.


And on a vehicle prone to oversteer it makes it real easy to "unload" the steering in a fast corner, just momentarily release the steering wheel... (WHEEEE!!!

MY alignment shop is going to get VERY specific instructions, Toe to Spec
Camber to -0.5deg. and as much caster as can be created AND keep it
even on both sides.

If they try to lie to me I'll burn their damned shop down
(with them in it) while I guard the doors with a 12ga.
Trust me I'll know.


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