TIres, lifts

[James Morse]

I know there's some probably well-placed frustration from y'all with me because I belabor issues that several of you have covered in good detail. And Eric's build. And the tech pages. The thing is, it's fine to say "we've done this before, and this is how you do it, and you can't re-invent the wheel" but I like to understand the why of things and find where information is consistent. I do listen to the voice of experience. That said, I yet plunge ahead.

In the tire chart https://www.therangerstation.com/how-to_pages/ford_ranger_tire_fitment.shtml it says for 31" tires I need 2" lift, or maybe it means, if you have 2" lift, you can run 31" tires. Here's where I get stuck in my understanding. I have 2" blocks, and when I said I already have 2" lift, I was told "that's not lift, that's just stock for your model". So which is it? If you say, that's not lift, then it would appear to me that with 31" tires I need zero lift because it's oem size and certainly they wouldn't sell a truck that rubs tires off the lot. Likewise where it says I need 4" lift, I'd need 2" (additional) lift - or take out the blocks and put 4" lift and so on.

Eric said

my front frame rail bottom measurement is about 27". My rear is actually 29". But I have longer shackles back there. So, realistically, with just the 35's and 6" lift it's about 28".

This also has me lost. I'm at 13" frame height measured at bottom of frame rail. Going from 29" to 35" tires adds 3" (half the increase in diameter, because half is at the tops). With 6" lift, that totals 9", so mine would be 22". That's a far cry from 28", and it's the same gen truck afaik so how can there be that huge difference?

This also confuses me: If I go from 31" to 33" that's putting 1" more at the top (fenders). But the chart says I need 4" lift (or 2" additional depending how my first question is resolved). It seems to me in my ignorance that adding an inch at the top means I need to add 1" lift not 2" or 4". Leave aside fender rub because there are at least (or maybe only) 2 ways to solve that. Why do I want more lift than appears necessary, is it because for off road I want more suspension travel?

Lastly for now, axle wrap. Blocks bad regarding that so I wouldn't lift that way. Reversed drop shackles sounds nice, but how does it prevent axle wrap vs blocks, or doesn't it prevent it? I gather that the other option is different springs.
-------------- end questions
Plans have to be dynamic until you actually do things. I think there's diminishing returns at some point for my purposes. But some things should be done regardless of future plans.
1. Install manual hubs (could have been ordered with it so I consider it oem). 2. Run trans/diff vents up higher. 3. Put oem size 31" tires until I sort out future plans. 4. Install additional trans cooler. These things change the truck in no cosmetic way from stock and keeps it inspectable and easily saleable for a guy who wants a really nice clean XLT that the only things different from stock are one-piece driveshaft (has it) and second trans cooler which no reasonable person would say they don't want.

Then IF I did more, I could change ratios to 4.56 or 4.88, still legal, better for off-road, no cosmetic change, and reversible, at least in theory, but hard to do. Also would be correct ratio *if* I went to 33" tires later. Would suck even more gas than it does, but not a big concern. Anything past what I just listed starts running into a lot of work. Lifting, for a small amount of additional clearance, bumper problems, c/g much higher, not stock appearance, need bumpers, possible inspection problems, other half would need steps to get in, on and on. That's why I say diminishing returns. But I do like Eric's truck, and I do like TRS-2, no doubt about that.

THANKS.

 

[Curious Hound]

I know there's some probably well-placed frustration from y'all with me because I belabor issues that several of you have covered in good detail. And Eric's build. And the tech pages. The thing is, it's fine to say "we've done this before, and this is how you do it, and you can't re-invent the wheel" but I like to understand the why of things and find where information is consistent. I do listen to the voice of experience. That said, I yet plunge ahead.

In the tire chart https://www.therangerstation.com/how-to_pages/ford_ranger_tire_fitment.shtml it says for 31" tires I need 2" lift, or maybe it means, if you have 2" lift, you can run 31" tires. Here's where I get stuck in my understanding. I have 2" blocks, and when I said I already have 2" lift, I was told "that's not lift, that's just stock for your model". So which is it? If you say, that's not lift, then it would appear to me that with 31" tires I need zero lift because it's oem size and certainly they wouldn't sell a truck that rubs tires off the lot. Likewise where it says I need 4" lift, I'd need 2" (additional) lift - or take out the blocks and put 4" lift and so on.

Eric said
This also has me lost. I'm at 13" frame height measured at bottom of frame rail. Going from 29" to 35" tires adds 3" (half the increase in diameter, because half is at the tops). With 6" lift, that totals 9", so mine would be 22". That's a far cry from 28", and it's the same gen truck afaik so how can there be that huge difference?

This also confuses me: If I go from 31" to 33" that's putting 1" more at the top (fenders). But the chart says I need 4" lift (or 2" additional depending how my first question is resolved). It seems to me in my ignorance that adding an inch at the top means I need to add 1" lift not 2" or 4". Leave aside fender rub because there are at least (or maybe only) 2 ways to solve that. Why do I want more lift than appears necessary, is it because for off road I want more suspension travel?

Lastly for now, axle wrap. Blocks bad regarding that so I wouldn't lift that way. Reversed drop shackles sounds nice, but how does it prevent axle wrap vs blocks, or doesn't it prevent it? I gather that the other option is different springs.
-------------- end questions
Plans have to be dynamic until you actually do things. I think there's diminishing returns at some point for my purposes. But some things should be done regardless of future plans.
1. Install manual hubs (could have been ordered with it so I consider it oem). 2. Run trans/diff vents up higher. 3. Put oem size 31" tires until I sort out future plans. 4. Install additional trans cooler. These things change the truck in no cosmetic way from stock and keeps it inspectable and easily saleable for a guy who wants a really nice clean XLT that the only things different from stock are one-piece driveshaft (has it) and second trans cooler which no reasonable person would say they don't want.

Then IF I did more, I could change ratios to 4.56 or 4.88, still legal, better for off-road, no cosmetic change, and reversible, at least in theory, but hard to do. Also would be correct ratio *if* I went to 33" tires later. Would suck even more gas than it does, but not a big concern. Anything past what I just listed starts running into a lot of work. Lifting, for a small amount of additional clearance, bumper problems, c/g much higher, not stock appearance, need bumpers, possible inspection problems, other half would need steps to get in, on and on. That's why I say diminishing returns. But I do like Eric's truck, and I do like TRS-2, no doubt about that.

THANKS.

Ok. While I was preparing this, @lil_Blue_Ford said some good stuff down below. @PetroleumJunkie412 is falling back into rhythm with where he left off a couple years ago.

1. the tire chart is basically showing that you are right on the edge of needing a lift for 31’s. See Lil Blue’s info below.

2. The tire clearance change from going to 33’s is more than just 1” at the top. It’s more than 1” at the front and rear of the wheel opening IF THE TIRES ARE POINTED STRAIGHT. When you turn, the effective tire diameter within the fender opening is more than that. It is more like the diagonal measurement across the tire. So your 31/10.50 becomes closer to 32.7”. Where this hits in the fender opening will depend on how tight the turn is, the width, backspacing and offset of the wheel and whether or not the suspension is being flexed upwards into the opening. It will also be closer at the rear than the front due to the way the TTB suspension moves. As the tire is pushed up, it moves rearward, slightly because it is describing an arc around the pivot at the rear end of the radius arm. The top of the tire also moves in slightly because the tire is describing another arc around the pivot at the other end of the axle beam. It’s all a 3 dimensional, rotating mess. Having longer radius arms helps reduce the rearward movement.

3. OEM blocks are not considered lift. When we talk about lift, we are talking about “above and beyond OEM design.

4. 13” frame height sounds more like a 2wd truck. Maybe we measured differently. My
Measurements were at the extreme ends of the frame, right behind where the bumper mounts. There could be other small differences due to current weight of the truck, age of springs, etc.

5.Axle Wrap. Blocks add a leverage arm between the axle and the spring. This extra leverage makes it easier for the axle to rotate or twist IN RELATION TO THE SPRING. Taller blocks = greater leverage = more axle rotation = possible spring damage and also, bad pinion angle which can bring on drive shaft damage. Using longer shackles or springs with deeper arch built in gives you lift while maintaining the geometric relationship between the spring and axle and pinion angle.

6. The rear. The rear generally has less clearance issues for tires on these trucks. The rear wheels will move slightly rearward as they are pushed up into the fender openings. This is because the front of the leaf spring is on a fixed pivot and rear moves rearward due to the flattening of the spring and the arc of the shackles. It will also move inward slightly as the axle tilts, usually pivoting on the opposite tire that is lower.

7. 4.10 or4.56 gears will be fine for 33” tires. That, by itself doesn’t hurt fuel mileage too bad since it helps you keep the Tom’s in the most efficient part of the power band. Less low rpm lugging of the engine. The majority of my lost fuel mileage comes from reduced aerodynamics from being lifted so high and the heavier wheels and tires. And that is primarily at highway speeds. I regularly average around 15mpg mixed driving.

You are welcome to reinvent the wheel all you want. You are asking good questions. We want to help reduce your aggravation, wasted time and wasted money.

 

[lil_Blue_Ford]

I know there's some probably well-placed frustration from y'all with me because I belabor issues that several of you have covered in good detail. And Eric's build. And the tech pages. The thing is, it's fine to say "we've done this before, and this is how you do it, and you can't re-invent the wheel" but I like to understand the why of things and find where information is consistent. I do listen to the voice of experience. That said, I yet plunge ahead.

Everyone has to start somewhere and learn. At some point though you either have to stop worrying about every little thing and just jump in and start swinging. Or sit on the sidelines forever.

In the tire chart https://www.therangerstation.com/how-to_pages/ford_ranger_tire_fitment.shtml it says for 31" tires I need 2" lift, or maybe it means, if you have 2" lift, you can run 31" tires. Here's where I get stuck in my understanding. I have 2" blocks, and when I said I already have 2" lift, I was told "that's not lift, that's just stock for your model". So which is it? If you say, that's not lift, then it would appear to me that with 31" tires I need zero lift because it's oem size and certainly they wouldn't sell a truck that rubs tires off the lot. Likewise where it says I need 4" lift, I'd need 2" (additional) lift - or take out the blocks and put 4" lift and so on.

So without looking, I think the tech pages are more in general type of discussion for lift vs tires. The stock 31” size is a metric size and a narrow tread, since it’s a metric size. A 31x10.50-15 is going to be wider than the stock tire and depending on the rim, may or may not tuck inside the fenders during flexing. A 2” lift makes that a non-issue. Older Rangers (specifically 1st and 2nd gen), need the lift for any 31” tire because of the wheel opening shape. 3rd Gen (your 97) and up have bigger wheel openings, so depending on specific tire/rim combo, a lift may not be required. Case in point, your 97 came with a metric tire size that amounts to a narrow 31” tire, so that tire on the original rims should clear just fine, at least on the road. They may or may not rub off road since you can end up in a position off road that goes beyond what a road driven truck would flex the suspension.

The stock 2” lift block on the rear axle was only for 4x4 trucks and is not considered a lift since every 4x4 Ranger got one. So that’s factory 4x4 height. When we talk of lift, it’s in terms of moving beyond that stock height, so thusly a 2” lift to a Ranger is in addition to the factory 2” block in the rear.

This also has me lost. I'm at 13" frame height measured at bottom of frame rail. Going from 29" to 35" tires adds 3" (half the increase in diameter, because half is at the tops). With 6" lift, that totals 9", so mine would be 22". That's a far cry from 28", and it's the same gen truck afaik so how can there be that huge difference?

This also confuses me: If I go from 31" to 33" that's putting 1" more at the top (fenders). But the chart says I need 4" lift (or 2" additional depending how my first question is resolved). It seems to me in my ignorance that adding an inch at the top means I need to add 1" lift not 2" or 4". Leave aside fender rub because there are at least (or maybe only) 2 ways to solve that. Why do I want more lift than appears necessary, is it because for off road I want more suspension travel?

In a perfect world, the numbers will be equal. But what you have to keep in mind is that this all isn’t an exact science. Different suspension types, spring rates, suspension wear, etc all play a part here. Case in point, let’s look at my F-150. It sits like it’s either lifted or it’s an F-250 of the same vintage. Maybe higher. I never put a lift on it, but I did replace the springs. The front got 1-ton (F-350 rated) progressive rate coils (kinda regret that now) and helper shocks that are longer than stock. The rear got custom leaf packs that would be at home on an F-350 SRW (single rear wheel). It sits a good probably 4” higher than stock, and 6” higher than the worn out springs that were on it when I got it. Possibly more, I don’t remember measuring. But these are not lift springs, they’re just really heavy duty. So putting new lift springs on your truck, or even just new springs period will change your ride height. Everything plays a part when it comes to lifting and there’s no easy math for how it all works. There’s just general information because everything is based on a variety of factors.

Wider tires and especially non-stock rims increase the likelihood of contact with fenders. Wide tires also provide additional stability for lifted vehicles. With the 5” suspension lift and 2” body lift on my choptop, I clear 35x12.50-15 tires well, they don’t contact the body. It also feels pretty planted on those tires even running at 12 psi. But put a set of 31x10.50-15 on it and the ride quality goes from planted to tippy.

Lastly for now, axle wrap. Blocks bad regarding that so I wouldn't lift that way. Reversed drop shackles sounds nice, but how does it prevent axle wrap vs blocks, or doesn't it prevent it? I gather that the other option is different springs.

Think of it in terms of levers. The taller the lift block, the bigger the lever the axle has to flex the springs (axle wrap, in extremes on a leaf spring it actually bends the spring from a shallow bow to an S shape). The more that spring gets bent like that, the worse things get broken.

The famous Belltech 2400 drop shackle and similar just move the end point of the axle and to some degree allow for a little less restricted spring movement over stock. That doesn’t make for a lever that the axle can use to bend things since it’s an attachment from the spring end to the frame, not anything attached to the axle itself. A block attaches from the axle to the spring, that’s where leverage forces are for axle wrap.

-------------- end questions
Plans have to be dynamic until you actually do things. I think there's diminishing returns at some point for my purposes. But some things should be done regardless of future plans.
1. Install manual hubs (could have been ordered with it so I consider it oem). 2. Run trans/diff vents up higher. 3. Put oem size 31" tires until I sort out future plans. 4. Install additional trans cooler. These things change the truck in no cosmetic way from stock and keeps it inspectable and easily saleable for a guy who wants a really nice clean XLT that the only things different from stock are one-piece driveshaft (has it) and second trans cooler which no reasonable person would say they don't want.

Then IF I did more, I could change ratios to 4.56 or 4.88, still legal, better for off-road, no cosmetic change, and reversible, at least in theory, but hard to do. Also would be correct ratio *if* I went to 33" tires later. Would suck even more gas than it does, but not a big concern. Anything past what I just listed starts running into a lot of work. Lifting, for a small amount of additional clearance, bumper problems, c/g much higher, not stock appearance, need bumpers, possible inspection problems, other half would need steps to get in, on and on. That's why I say diminishing returns. But I do like Eric's truck, and I do like TRS-2, no doubt about that.

THANKS.

Nothing is set in stone that you have to be able to return the truck to total stock configuration, people buy lifted and lowered vehicles all the time, there is a market for it. We aren’t talking a super rare vehicle here where one would want to keep it as original as possible for value. We are talking a truck you intend to use, so make it to suit what you want out of it. If you want a really capable truck to off road, you’re going to want to go as full-bore as you can. If you want something mildly capable, then you go smaller. It’s all in what you’ve decided you want to achieve. IMHO, if you want a really trail capable rig, you’re going to want to lift it as high as you legally can and run 35’s. Anything less and you’ll find some trails are just too much and you can bottom out or the like, but most trails will be in the realm of possibility. A 2” lift and 31’s will still get you off-road and a fair amount of trails, but you aren’t going to have clearance for anything other than mild trails. 4” lift and 33’s are going to straddle the middle, but may just whet your appetite for more.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

And they said there was no dumb question, man were they wrong

You can't just change the title of the thread.

Now I have to say more off topic things that make me chortle in this thread.




You're wrong.

 

[James Morse]

A 31x10.50-15 is going to be wider than the stock tire

Yes 31" is about 3/4" wider tread, means sidewall wider too.
I have the oem fender flares, so, they could stick out a little but not tons. I know of no law about that, I see trucks with tires sticking out past the fenders like 3".
I prefer they don't stick out a lot I think it looks bad but that's me.
Nothing against the 265/75's, just, seems like there's not so much selection but I'll do another search before I buy anything.

 

[Curious Hound]

Yes 31" is about 3/4" wider tread, means sidewall wider too.
I have the oem fender flares, so, they could stick out a little but not tons. I know of no law about that, I see trucks with tires sticking out past the fenders like 3".
I prefer they don't stick out a lot I think it looks bad but that's me.
Nothing against the 265/75's, just, seems like there's not so much selection but I'll do another search before I buy anything.

I wasn’t talking about them sticking out. I was talking about rubbing in the fender openings and on the fender liner.

 

[James Morse]

AH yes. Thanks. That WOULD be a problem. Appreciate the heads up.

 

[scotts90ranger]

I ran 31" tires on my stock '90 4x4 for a few years with only minor rubbing, I'm pretty sure you can run 31" tires on a '93 or newer without problem other than maybe minor rubbing of the inner fender or something...

 

[2011Supercab]

This also has me lost. I'm at 13" frame height measured at bottom of frame rail.

You need to measure at the very front or rear of the frame, where the bumpers mount.