[solved] M5OD-R1 transmission loud whine?

[perpetualslack]

Hello all,

I am trying to knock down a loud (as in someone shouting voice loud) metallic grinding noise that started tonight. I'll check the transmission fluid and try to upload a video of the noise tomorrow. The clutch, pilot bearing, slave, flywheel was changed ~30k ago while the transmission fluid is consistently topped up (but never over filled) due to seeping leak at the tailshaft housing (and emergency daily driver).

I am getting a very loud, mid-high pitched whine noise from either the transmission (shifter floor area) or the front end of a 2WD 1995 4.0 OHV. Unable to pin the noise down because it only occurs when vehicle is moving above a certain speed ~20mph. I am not sure if this is a transmission/driveshaft or axle (wheel bearing) issue? Seems to be present from 20-60mph and even in all gears except maybe reverse (not brave enough to check )

Noise not present when:
Stopped, reving engine in neutral/dis-engaged cluch
Stopped, Idling, neutral/disenaged clutch
Stopped, engine shut off engaged/disengaged clutch


Noise present when:
Clutch enagaged/disengaged , vehicle moving at speed
Engine shut off clutch enaged disengaged, vehicle moving at speed

Leads me to believe this is not an engine issue (I have a seperate thread on that whole nine yards). My current guesses:
1) Pilot bearing
2) Front wheel bearing
3) Brake/rotor issues
4) Fried transmission

Edit: The transmission is throwing up fluid through the shifter hole onto the floorplate a bit. It is commonly wet.

 

[Brain75]

diagnosing the transmission separately than the engine I can think of a few steps...

I'm not sure from your description but it sounds like you have done these tests and it failed all 1/2/3/4?
1 get going 35+ mph, and then shift to neutral take your foot OFF the clutch so you are coasting down in neutral
(half your transmission is not spinning, only the input (cause the clutch is out) and the output (cause ya know it's tied to the drive shaft)...
2 get going 35+ mph, and the shift to neutral and HOLD the clutch in for an extended coast
(the whole front half of the trans should be disengaged at that point since it is disengaged by the clutch)
repeats steps 1 and 2 but with the the addition of killing the engine (call those 3 and 4)...


FWIW, the trans throwing up all the time sounds definitely for sure wrong... I'm on 34 yrs no rebuild and other than typical slave cylinder issues no problems... if it can do that without puking its guts out for most folks something is up with that.

If my understanding of your tests is right I would say it is not in the engine or the front 3/4 of the trans - output shaft or driveline beyond.

As far as reverse goes, everything I have ever driven manual has whined like all hell in reverse. The reason, almost all reverse gears are straight cut (spur) gears like it was 1940 instead of modern helical cut... My 1948 came with an all spur gear 4 speed - the guys call em rock crushers or boat anchors - should call em banshees.

 

[perpetualslack]

diagnosing the transmission separately than the engine I can think of a few steps...

I'm not sure from your description but it sounds like you have done these tests and it failed all 1/2/3/4?
1 get going 35+ mph, and then shift to neutral take your foot OFF the clutch so you are coasting down in neutral
(half your transmission is not spinning, only the input (cause the clutch is out) and the output (cause ya know it's tied to the drive shaft)...
2 get going 35+ mph, and the shift to neutral and HOLD the clutch in for an extended coast
(the whole front half of the trans should be disengaged at that point since it is disengaged by the clutch)
repeats steps 1 and 2 but with the the addition of killing the engine (call those 3 and 4)...

FWIW, the trans throwing up all the time sounds definitely for sure wrong... I'm on 34 yrs no rebuild and other than typical slave cylinder issues no problems... if it can do that without puking its guts out for most folks something is up with that.

If my understanding of your tests is right I would say it is not in the engine or the front 3/4 of the trans - output shaft or driveline beyond.

As far as reverse goes, everything I have ever driven manual has whined like all hell in reverse. The reason, almost all reverse gears are straight cut (spur) gears like it was 1940 instead of modern helical cut... My 1948 came with an all spur gear 4 speed - the guys call em rock crushers or boat anchors - should call em banshees.

Failed 1, Failed 2, Failed 3, failed 4. Sound only stops when the vehicle stops moving. Sound is from the front half of the transmission/engine area though. Reverse does not squeal but I'm not brave enough to hit 30mph reverse speeds.

I couldn't get a good picture earlier but the entire transmission behind the drain/fill plugs are wet and soaked in trans fluid, I can actually see the bright red liquid splattered on the bottom of the cab around the shifter. Already drained and refilled transmission fluid since it look terrible.
Front end the slave is leaking a bit I think. Output shaft rubber boot portion of the seal is torn.

Fill plug won't move and is jammed stuck. Drain plug pictures below with the burnt transmission fluid (only after 30k?). Lots of thin hair like shavings but nothing loose floating in the oil or chunks.

Color of trans fluid (and a free unflattering picture of me). The bucket is grey aluminum. Fluid color of the transmission fluid is a burnt brown burgundy But if allowed to settle the top 1/3rd of it is bright red from picture above.


MP3 of noise. Phone is loacted between the front cab and the shifter:

unknown noise

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Maybe jack it up and check wheels for up and down or side to side play....Might be wheel bearing. Jiggling w/ the tire on will really show if there's play...I slightly suspect wheel bearing.

Also did you check u joints for play? they might be worn...also the center support bearing if you have 2 piece driveshaft.

Mine will sometimes grind into reverse, has a lot of play in the stick when in gear, but doesnt make any noise.

My previous ranger M50d I beat the crap out of as a college kid, and only blew 5th gear once.

Ive never had the fluid come out black. I would definitely get that fill plug loose and top off fresh fluid.

I heard DexronIII is the best but I just run whatever dex/merc I got.

If possible maybe have a buddy drive while you hang your head out the window(s) listening for the noise.

 

[Shran]

That looks like a normal drain plug to me. There is almost always a layer of fuzz on them. Don't think into the dirty fluid too much, if it was allowed to go a very long time between changes in the past, it can take a couple drain, refill & drive cycles to flush out all the nasty black goo that forms in there.

Does the noise change in pitch with engine RPM or vehicle speed or is it the same most of the time?

Rock in the brakes or a worn out brake pad or things like that will make awful noise.

Bad wheel bearings are usually a low pitched humming sound that can be easily mistaken for road noise unless they get really bad.

 

[perpetualslack]

Does the noise change in pitch with engine RPM or vehicle speed or is it the same most of the time?

Noise gets louder at higher speeds but isn't consistent but generally like a sine wave. Sometimes stops mysteriously even at speed.

Maybe jack it up and check wheels for up and down or side to side play....Might be wheel bearing. Jiggling w/ the tire on will really show if there's play...I slightly suspect wheel bearing.

Also did you check u joints for play? they might be worn...also the center support bearing if you have 2 piece driveshaft.

I have a bad shock and a tie rod on my passenger front tire (play in steering directions). Planning to change it all with wheel bearings this weekend.

Yes, I forget to mention, there is play in driveshaft so U-joints will get replaced after my front end work.
For the center support bearing, I would have a 1.378" ID correct? 125" wheelbase (Ext. Cab) according to rockauto. Can't find too much info on this. I rekon the center bearing is shot too since most plastic bushings are gone on the truck.

I am going to replace the IAC. I have a sneaking suspicion mine just went bad after cleaning it a few k ago. Idle hanging at 2K after pushing clutch in.

 

[Shran]

For the center support bearing, I would have a 1.378" ID correct? 125" wheelbase (Ext. Cab) according to rockauto. Can't find too much info on this. I rekon the center bearing is shot too since most plastic bushings are gone on the truck.

The only way to know for sure is to measure the ID of the bearing. That is almost impossible without pulling the yoke off the short part of the shaft, digging all the dry grease out and sticking a caliper in there. I just did this a couple days ago, I thought at first that I had a 40mm ID bearing but just to confirm I took it all apart and found that it was actually a 30mm ID bearing, and the 40mm measurement that looked right under the truck was actually the OD of the yoke.

 

[Brain75]

I'm going to agree and disagree with Shran a little... that much fuzz that quick on only 30k after a flush and fill is a bit too soon for my blood, couple that with the puking all the time and I think you are looking at doing some trans work no matter what.

Agree wise, I drove gravel roads a butt ton and got rocks in the brake (behind/between dust shield and edge of drum or disc) and that sounds like a rock in the brakes to me too. Sine wave that gets louder the faster you go also says you have a slightly warped drum/rotor (warp causes the sine wave part). I'd be looking over the brakes and shaking my head at how the noise plays ventriloquist and comes from trans.

Sounds like you got a well worn truck with lots of little problems... tackle the ones you know about the most first and while you are fixing you might just run across the obvious clue one over from the one you are touching.

Did you unhook the battery for 20-30 min after cleaning the IAC? Be sure to do it when replacing - probably part of the idle at 2k issue you mentioned.

 

[Brain75]

I've read on a number of forum threads here about the M5OD "weeping" but never puking... not even once... so I pulled up the ole manual and skimmed it... for every problem you describe (leaking, puking, whine) the first item is "improper lube type/specification"

https://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/pdf_documents/ford_m5od_manual_transmission_shop_manual.pdf

(troubleshooting starts on 5th page)
And since you didn't say I got to ask, you are using ATF, right?

 

[perpetualslack]

Agree wise, I drove gravel roads a butt ton and got rocks in the brake (behind/between dust shield and edge of drum or disc) and that sounds like a rock in the brakes to me too. Sine wave that gets louder the faster you go also says you have a slightly warped drum/rotor (warp causes the sine wave part). I'd be looking over the brakes and shaking my head at how the noise plays ventriloquist and comes from trans.

And since you didn't say I got to ask, you are using ATF, right?

Yes. I'm using ATF. The tranmission is weeping a decent puddle every day under the drain hole despite a new crush washer... I have a feeling new transmission soon...

Just had the rotors replaced with the wheel bearings. Lots of play on passenger right side inner bearing. You can see score marks on the inner bearing inside and some metallic shavings. Noise reduced but still present (I still think its a transmission issue). Going to get the brake caliper replaced soon, there's a definite issue on the passenger side one sticking a bit. Gonna clean it up to get a better pic of the score marks inside, there's one that's bad enough you can feel it by touch.

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Oh hey BTW if you do center support bearing/ u joints makes dure to marking the yoke position before separating the splines or in case they do. I went off memory and was a little off and think they never went back together right or cause damage getting em right after a few tries as I developed a vibration not long after....solution was did the one piece driveshaft swap and am very happy with it.

 

[perpetualslack]

Hello Folks.
I have resolved the issue. It appears that a new alternator with pulley was defective. Only under load and torque while moving it would "wobble". After replacing the alternator, the issue no longer persists.

Testing it under load while not stationary will not cause this issue.

 

[Eddo Rogue]

Keep an eye on that new alternator. Hopefully its a quality brand, but either way both my buddies and I have recently experienced brand new alternators be defective out of the box, or fail very prematurely. A lot of new parts are bunk out of the box DOA now that I think about it...

 

[perpetualslack]

Keep an eye on that new alternator. Hopefully its a quality brand, but either way both my buddies and I have recently experienced brand new alternators be defective out of the box, or fail very prematurely. A lot of new parts are bunk out of the box DOA now that I think about it...

It's a function of racing to the bottom right now between the majority of Chinese manufactures. Not too aquainted with the auto side but from I gather, there's a price war going on between all the major EV/ICE players over there isn't helping QA alongside deflation.

From what I can tell the pulley bearing and the voltage regulator was bad. Pushing 23V at normal idle with no issues on the wiring or grounds (for the alternator circuit at least... Other ground issues for the passenger and center brake lights just last week).