School me on ABS on new bikes

[RonD]

Man you guys act like abs on a bike is new, my 84 zx9 had hydraulic abs. They called it anti dive but it did the same thing even back then.

Well not really that close to ABS, anti-dive used brake fluid pressure to close a valve on the front forks to restricted fork fluid flow when braking, so front end got stiffer with more brake pressure, basically a pressure adjusted shock, wheel could still lock up you would just be sitting higher when it did

ABS was on 1988 BMW, then Honda and Yamaha in 1992, Suzuki in 1997.

Honda was the first to use the "Combined Braking System"(CBS) in 1982, this was similar to the proportioning valve used in cars, while not ABS it addressed the issue of having two separate brake controls for the two wheels, with CBS when either front or rear brake was applied part of that pressure was sent to the other brake/wheel.
While it seems "safer" it did produce it's own problems, when a rider was applying pressure to the back brake some was going to the front brake, and if the front wheel suddenly lost friction/traction it would lock up causing a fall.

 

[Myanarchy]

It pulled weight off the front brakes by unloading the suspenson

 

[veefer800canuck]

It pulled weight off the front brakes by unloading the suspenson

Uh, it restricted front suspension travel (dive under braking) by closing a valve inside the front forks compression damping circuit.

The hydraulic pressure to the brake pistons was unaffected.

 

[veefer800canuck]

Well you may not think you are a purist.....................

I am sure in the future when "hover bikes" are being used there will be some "purists" who will say "having rubber on the road is "the best" way to ride".
"these young people these days just don't know what "real riding" is all about, feeling the road, that's what it is all about!"

As far as people getting in "over their heads" with powerful machines, that has been happening with young males(and old males, lol) through out history, even before machines.
The famous last words......"Watch this.........." were not first used yesterday nor only in english, I am sure there were some injured or dead "cave boys" that spoke those words to friends just before.......well "getting in over their heads", lol.

Gotta walk before you can run. The Air Force doesn't let people fly fighter jets on their first day of enlistment.

You need to learn to fly something smaller, slower, and more forgiving first, and gain experience. Super Cub, Cessna, and work up from there. Get flying hours under your belt and work towards the F-18 or F-22 eventually.

Same 'general' principle applies to bikes.

That's just good advice. As for the purist thing, well, whatever you wanna call it.

I don't care if the OP gets a CBR250 or a GS500 or whatever, but I would never recommend a ZX-10R or a CBR1000 or an R-1 or a Ducati 1098 as a first bike for anyone.

Way too much bike. Way too much.

And remember that the throttle turns BOTH ways. Not just open.

 

[Myanarchy]

Uh, it restricted front suspension travel (dive under braking) by closing a valve inside the front forks compression damping circuit.

The hydraulic pressure to the brake pistons was unaffected.

So restricting the dive didn't restrict the brake on the front?

Maybe I'm missing how a proportion valve works, but lets call the valve the fork and re visit.

 

[veefer800canuck]

All it did was prevent the front fork from bottoming out under braking.

Quick fix that was popular with the Big 4 in the 1980s, instead of fitting good suspension.

Suzuki had NEAS (New Electrically Activated Suspension), Honda had TRAC (Torque Reactive Anti-dive Control) Kawasaki had AVDS (Automatic Variable Damping System), and Yamaha had, well, they had something. I forget the acronym for it.

They all worked more or less the same, to restrict compression damping of the front fork during braking.

None of them would prevent wheel locking suring panic braking. Just fork bottoming.

New bikes generally don't have that extra hokum attached to the forks, as the quality of suspension and chassis components has increased, better valving, spring rates, etc, give a better ride and more control than 30 years ago.

A certain amount of dive is helpful, as it steepens the effective chassis rake, and helps the bike initially turn into the corner. Too much is a bad thing, as if the suspension bottoms, it feels like a pogo stick, won't absorb any bumps, and can also effect traction by loading more weight sharply on the front tire, possibly too much depending on the road conditions.

Still not ABS though.

 

[veefer800canuck]

So restricting the dive didn't restrict the brake on the front?

Maybe I'm missing how a proportion valve works, but lets call the valve the fork and re visit.

In some systems, the hydraulic pressure from the front brake was used to actuate a valve inside the forks to restrict oil flow through the fork, reducing dive.

Not a proportioning valve for the brake side, but a proportioning valve (of sorts) for the fork oil flow through the compression circuit.

Suzuki used an electric switch off the brake circuit instead, and a solenoid actuated valve.

 

[--weezl--]

Well you may not think you are a purist.....................

I am sure in the future when "hover bikes" are being used there will be some "purists" who will say "having rubber on the road is "the best" way to ride".
"these young people these days just don't know what "real riding" is all about, feeling the road, that's what it is all about!"

As far as people getting in "over their heads" with powerful machines, that has been happening with young males(and old males, lol) through out history, even before machines.
The famous last words......"Watch this.........." were not first used yesterday nor only in english, I am sure there were some injured or dead "cave boys" that spoke those words to friends just before.......well "getting in over their heads", lol.

LOL game set and match!

Man you guys act like abs on a bike is new, my 84 zx9 had hydraulic abs. They called it anti dive but it did the same thing even back then.

It pulled weight off the front brakes by unloading the suspenson

yeah, i've got to agree with the others, there's a few styles of anti dive, I know on yamaha bikes the brake fluid from the front master goes to a proportioning valve that sends some fluid into the front forks, and the majority of it to the front brakes, the fluid going into the front forks makes the front suspension stiffer, making the weight shift of braking less severe, and thus working kind of like ABS, in the way that it decreases the likelihood that the REAR will lock up, but in actuality, because it takes weight off of the front wheel, it increases that likelihood. there is absolutely NO connections on these bikes between the front and rear brake systems, and infact on the viragos (the same model of bike i have) that had the anti dive system, they were still using a mechanical pushrod drum brake in the rear, which is IMPOSSIBLE to use any type brake modulation device on, other than a rider correcting for it.


as for Veefer, you've made your point, please carry on now, before you get this thread locked for arguing a point that everyone disagrees with you on. you've voiced your opinion, the OP understands that there are two sides of the coin.

 

[veefer800canuck]

Well weezl, the OP, Miller Time, seems to have left the building, so we don't really know WHAT he thinks.

I hope he got the bike and is too busy out riding it to post up.

 

[--weezl--]

true, but it's not the OP that's going to lock the thread, if it gets out of hand...

I agree, hopefully he's out enjoying the pavement, something I wish I could do, but sadly my insurance company is taking their sweet time coming to a conclusion of if they are going to fix my bike...

 

[veefer800canuck]

Good luck, hopefully it works out in your favor.

I had to whine a bit, but I finally got 7K out of my ins. co., bought the bike back, and completely rebuilt it from the ground up.

At one point, it was just a motor, sitting on some 2x4's on the garage floor. And up she went from there.

 

[--weezl--]

thanks, appreciated. I've got lawyers involved, and injuries and yeah... i'm going to be upset if i only get 7k out of this to be honest with you... i've been off work almost 2 months now, hoping i can go back this week, but I kinda doubt it...

 

[wordsmyth]

I am on my 3rd BMW with ABS.

Yes, ABS is definitely worth it.

Yes, ABS can save you from a situation that would have otherwise been a t-boner or other type of crash.

To wit -

My first BMW was a non-ABS bike and riding a daily traveled road one day a car pulled in front of me. I grabbed the stoppers and (thankfully) just as the rear end was coming around I skidded to a both wheels screeching stop only a few feet from the car. Collision or not, a few more seconds and it would have been a sure high-side as the rear wheel was well around to the right and I did not have control of the center of gravity.

My next BMW was an ABS equipped K75RT and several years later I was on the same road and a car again pulled in front of me at the same congested stretch. This time I grabbed brakes for a panic stop and the bike stayed straight and dead on track. I came to a full stop unbelievably quick, and again avoided a collision.

Months later I was in the mountains of north Georgia on the same bike (K75RT) riding a road with broad sweepers. A rider sitting on the roadside up ahead did a turnout in front of me. I was already leaned over into the curve. Instinctively I grabbed brakes and for a split second I felt the rear tire break traction. Then the ABS kicked in and I was able to slow enough for the guy to get on out of the way.

No ABS in that case would have certainly resulted in a low-side for me.

So I'm a huge believer in ABS on bikes. My current bike is a 2000 BMW R1100RT, in Graphite, the fastest and coolest color.

 

[veefer800canuck]

thanks, appreciated. I've got lawyers involved, and injuries and yeah... i'm going to be upset if i only get 7k out of this to be honest with you... i've been off work almost 2 months now, hoping i can go back this week, but I kinda doubt it...

Ah, well injury settlements are a different animal than just the property valuation, which is usually easily settled.

Hopefully you wind up well healed, and not like me, with a few lasting modifications.

 

[--weezl--]

Yeah, no broken bones for me, they finally determined after 2 sets of x-rays on one hand, and 1 plus a ct on the other. I'm actually at the doctors office waiting to see if I'm allowed to go back to work...