performance cams 3.0L

[Just_Randy]

Just Randy - This program rocks.......


Says I should get around 171hp@4500 and 223ft/lbs at 3500

Yeah, its not bad. I've been using it a lot on atv engines lately. One thing I can't figure out though.... according to the software, webcams camshafts for the LT230 actually LOSE hp across the board when compared to the stock cam. I've been scratching my head on that one for almost a year. Everybody that runs the cams say they rock, but nobody has ever replaced JUST the cam. They always install a big bore kit and a bunch of other stuff too. Hard to believe someone that's been grinding cams as long as they have are wrong, but the software works on all the other aftermarket cams.... The only thing I can think is the software doesn't consider the stiffer valve springs. But that's the only issue I've noticed.

The program is pretty accurate though if you can get your hands on the real flow numbers for the head.

 

[evanesce69]

i think you have figured this out by now, but i love to solve problems and re-engineer the obvious.

What is it that confounds you exactly? perhaps both our mind combined will solve this riddle.

Rob

 

[Just_Randy]

I'm the same way.

Well,,, I don't know whether to say the software is wrong, or a well established cam grinder offers 3 popular grinds that consistenly lose HP over stock. Its almost to the point where I want to just buy the cams just to see.

This is the place: http://www.webcamshafts.com/ Everybody loves them, but according to dyno200 and 2003 their cams LOSE hp on the suzuki 230 quadsport.

But according to dyno200 and 2003, these guys http://www.megacyclecams.com/ have cams that gain hp above stock.

I've never been sure what to think. Personally, I think everybody just likes the "pretty webpage" webcams has.

 

[evanesce69]

are they talking about total performance, or just a number at the peak.

you know ALOT more about the program than I know.

I have this thought, maybe peak HP is lower, but HP averages are larger over a wider range with the grinds they offer. The operational range of the ATV (i like pulling wheelies in 3rd gear).

lets relate this to our truck. we know it is a winder, and max hp is on the high end. What if we grind a cam that give a little less max potential, but we give that potential over a larger rpm range. How would that effect the penultimate performance. That is the part i leave to you. you know more about the proggy. How do flatter wider curves hold up again sharp narrow curves.

Rob

 

[evanesce69]

i just realized something: I think i want a flat tire.

 

[Just_Randy]

are they talking about total performance, or just a number at the peak.

you know ALOT more about the program than I know.

I have this thought, maybe peak HP is lower, but HP averages are larger over a wider range with the grinds they offer. The operational range of the ATV (i like pulling wheelies in 3rd gear).

lets relate this to our truck. we know it is a winder, and max hp is on the high end. What if we grind a cam that give a little less max potential, but we give that potential over a larger rpm range. How would that effect the penultimate performance. That is the part i leave to you. you know more about the proggy. How do flatter wider curves hold up again sharp narrow curves.

Rob

Well, firstly, for some reason I'm not getting emails of your replies. I just happen to swing by n see you said something. Occassionally I'll get a subscription update, but its random at best. I don't know what's up with that. I'm subscribed!

Anyway, you definitely want to maximize the area under the HP or Torque curve and NOT look at peak numbers unless you are planning to stay at peak rpm for a long time (ie desert racing or something). Trucks and atv's are similar... at least for me they are.

The thing about webcams is they are lower at every rpm than stock... Not just peak. According to dyno2003, you'll lose 5-10% power across the board. Not good!

HP curves are a lot like water balloons. If you push on one side, the other pops up higher. So, you can move the curve around like that, but you can't create something from nothing. You always have to give something up. What you need to do is figure out what kind of driving you'll want to do most and go from there. Then just tell the proggie how you want the curve to look and it will tell you what cam to get. (ie. maximize hp, max torque, max area under curves).

In order to do this right, you need decently accurate flow numbers for your head. This is especially important with atvs because the defaults are FAR from the real numbers you'd get from such a small head. When I can't find the real numbers, I usually try to set everything so I match the factory reported HP numbers. Then I can assume I have a good stock engine to start with. Next I play with the cam numbers and see what happens.

But I know somebody has to have flow numbers for the 3.0. You'll probably have to wear google out to find them or spend some time on the phone asking around. I got lucky on my atv... I found a 750-4 honda online that was flow benched and the numbers reported. I just used those since the valve sizes were close.

 

[Bob Ayers]

Well, firstly, for some reason I'm not getting emails of your replies. I just happen to swing by n see you said something. Occassionally I'll get a subscription update, but its random at best. I don't know what's up with that. I'm subscribed!

Anyway, you definitely want to maximize the area under the HP or Torque curve and NOT look at peak numbers unless you are planning to stay at peak rpm for a long time (ie desert racing or something). Trucks and atv's are similar... at least for me they are.

The thing about webcams is they are lower at every rpm than stock... Not just peak. According to dyno2003, you'll lose 5-10% power across the board. Not good!

HP curves are a lot like water balloons. If you push on one side, the other pops up higher. So, you can move the curve around like that, but you can't create something from nothing. You always have to give something up. What you need to do is figure out what kind of driving you'll want to do most and go from there. Then just tell the proggie how you want the curve to look and it will tell you what cam to get. (ie. maximize hp, max torque, max area under curves).

In order to do this right, you need decently accurate flow numbers for your head. This is especially important with atvs because the defaults are FAR from the real numbers you'd get from such a small head. When I can't find the real numbers, I usually try to set everything so I match the factory reported HP numbers. Then I can assume I have a good stock engine to start with. Next I play with the cam numbers and see what happens.

But I know somebody has to have flow numbers for the 3.0. You'll probably have to wear google out to find them or spend some time on the phone asking around. I got lucky on my atv... I found a 750-4 honda online that was flow benched and the numbers reported. I just used those since the valve sizes were close.

Sounds like confirmed my previous post that the stock cam is pretty much optimized across the "useable" RPM range.

 

[Just_Randy]

Sounds like confirmed my previous post that the stock cam is pretty much optimized across the "useable" RPM range.

You're probably right, but I wouldn't mind sacrificing a few topend ponies for a nice bottom-end clydesdale. My old truck never sees 5000 rpm anyway. A big waste is the way I figure it. E'specially when I have 31's with 3.73's!

Anyone have a clue what the stock cam specs are?

 

[inferno94]

I used dyno 2000 and didn't come up with oem power levels for my engine, I liked what it said but it wasn't what my brocure said.

It says on the vulcan adding shorty headers will add 15-20ftlbs across the board, that sounds good but thats a 10-15% increase from adding headers to a stock motor. It seems a little optimistic to me but if it was true, I'd gladly drop $500 on some jba's for those gains.

Another thing is I retarded the timing to -10 deg (stock is advanced 10 deg) the tq dropped like 5% over the whole range but the hp went up by 30% WTF?

 

[Just_Randy]

I used dyno 2000 and didn't come up with oem power levels for my engine, I liked what it said but it wasn't what my brocure said.

Do you have the specs for an OEM engine? (Like cam duration and lift, head flow numbers?)

Another thing is I retarded the timing to -10 deg (stock is advanced 10 deg) the tq dropped like 5% over the whole range but the hp went up by 30% WTF?

Torque may have dropped, but moved higher up the rpm curve. That might explain why HP went up. You'd have to overlay the curves to find out for sure.

 

[aeraceranthony]

Any of you guys know of anyone that makes performance cams for our 3.0L

http://www.moranav6racing.com/category.html?CategoryID=36

 

[Just_Randy]

Thanks!