Mysterious clutch issue in inherited Ranger

[TheStrangerRanger]

I was gifted a 2000 Ranger XLT 2.5L with an undetermined clutch issue; the clutch loses its pressure after 30-45 minutes of being disengaged, it is parked with a stick to keep the pedal engaged to avoid this. Apparently before I owned it, the previous owner had taken the truck to two separate garages to get the clutch fixed which included bleeding the system, replacing slave and master cylinders and replacing hydraulic lines to the extent that the new replacement parts were replaced. The first garage pretty much said drive it off a cliff because they couldn't fix it and the determined/highly rated second garage did not have any more luck than them. From what I am told, replacing the cylinders and bleeding the system help for a couple weeks but the same problem would reoccur. I understand the system can have leaks, but if essentially everything was replaced, where do I even start?

 

[tomw]

You said:the clutch loses its pressure after 30-45 minutes of being disengaged, it is parked with a stick to keep the pedal engaged to avoid this.

Does this translate to the clutch does not work, you can press the clutch pedal all day and it stays engaged, you cannot put the transmission in gear IF you leave the clutch pedal released, at the top of its stroke for more than 30-45 minutes?
So you have a stick to depress the clutch pedal, to keep the clutch released, and it then works normally?

What do you do if you have to drive for more than 30-45 minutes ... and the pedal is at the top of its stroke? Does it then work, or not?
...
If you can depress the clutch pedal, and the clutch stays engaged, then either the master or slave(or both) have a leak. They are simple piston/cylinders with a seal on each piston.
If you use a stick to keep the pedal down when parking, then you are keeping the system 'under pressure', and that will put force on the lip seals to expand them out so they will seal against the inner bore of the master & slave. The seals have a thin edge and are slightly 'cupped'. The pressure is on the 'inside' of the cup {if the seals are installed correctly} and forces the lip outwards against the inner bore. Likely you can put the pedal 1/2 way down with a shorter stick, and it will continue to work if the seals are the problem, as the pressure will be the same as fully depressed.
I would take them back, or disassemble & replace the inner seals. Could be Norm installed them backwards at the factory, or they were the wrong size.
Because they are not leaking, I'd bet the master is the problem. You have a 50/50 on that. If the slave seal was leaking, I'd think the fluid would fall on the floor. If the master leaks, the fluid can stay inside the cylinder behind the pushrod seal.
tom

 

[RonD]

.......... the previous owner had taken the truck to two separate garages to get the clutch fixed which included bleeding the system, replacing slave and master cylinders and replacing hydraulic lines to the extent that the new replacement parts were replaced. The first garage pretty much said drive it off a cliff because they couldn't fix it and the determined/highly rated second garage did not have any more luck than them. ..........

The hydraulic clutch system is a very very simple system, same as the brake system but WAY less complicated.

So there is a piece of the puzzle missing here??

I guess first question would be is it losing fluid, is reservoir dry after the 30-40minutes?
If not then yes replace Master, don't care that it was already replaced, "new" no longer means "it works", "new" now means "never tested, but I will warranty it, NO not the labor just the part", lol.

Also open the reservoir, remove diaphragm if it is in there and have someone slowly push down the clutch pedal, you should see no fluid flowing into reservoir, the master has a check valve on the reservoir hose connection, fluid can flow down into master but shouldn't be able to come back up into the reservoir.
If fluid is coming back up into reservoir then replace master, it should also come with new reservoir.

If it is losing fluid then you will need to pull the transmission and replace slave, master and line.

 

[Mazda]

Also open the reservoir, remove diaphragm if it is in there and have someone slowly push down the clutch pedal, you should see no fluid flowing into reservoir, the master has a check valve on the reservoir hose connection, fluid can flow down into master but shouldn't be able to come back up into the reservoir.
If fluid is coming back up into reservoir then replace master, it should also come with new reservoir.

If it is losing fluid then you will need to pull the transmission and replace slave, master and line.

Had a similar issue with my uncles truck. Had the entire clutch system replaced at around 300,000. Had issues with it not shifting after a few minutes down the road. Found out the guy didn't put the diaphragm in the master. They popped it in, bleed the system and everything worked great after that. just a thought.

 

[TheStrangerRanger]

You said:the clutch loses its pressure after 30-45 minutes of being disengaged, it is parked with a stick to keep the pedal engaged to avoid this.

Does this translate to the clutch does not work, you can press the clutch pedal all day and it stays engaged, you cannot put the transmission in gear IF you leave the clutch pedal released, at the top of its stroke for more than 30-45 minutes?
So you have a stick to depress the clutch pedal, to keep the clutch released, and it then works normally?

I should have apologized in advanced, I am not very car savvy so my terminology may be a little off. I keep the stick in to keep the pedal depressed (i believe this means the clutch is not engaged?) because I was told that after 30-45 minutes of driving the clutch would not disengage so you would have to shift without the clutch (not sure if the pedal goes to the floor or what, just what I was told). I have not personally driven it for longer than 20 minutes myself because it had a leaky differential I had to fix first.

Upon research, my first guess was leak in master, slave and/or hydraulic line; but that was when I was told that each of these have been replaced 3 or 4 times (first garage replaced everything and than replaced everything again a couple weeks later because it still wasn't working correctly and the second garage replaced everything at least one time). I just think it would be unlikely (but not impossible) that all of these parts would be faulty and two different garages would be installing incorrectly.

These are just the things I have been told, but it was a free truck and i know the previous owner well, so I know he isn't lying about it. I guess the questions is what is something that could be overlooked during all these replacements. Also, it isn't loosing any noticeable amounts of fluid in reservoir or have any wetness under clutch pedal/master cylinder or from what I can feel around slave.

Let me know if anyone has any ideas, or if you have any questions to help you help me. Thank you in advanced!

 

[TheStrangerRanger]

Also open the reservoir, remove diaphragm if it is in there and have someone slowly push down the clutch pedal, you should see no fluid flowing into reservoir, the master has a check valve on the reservoir hose connection, fluid can flow down into master but shouldn't be able to come back up into the reservoir.
If fluid is coming back up into reservoir then replace master, it should also come with new reservoir.

If it is losing fluid then you will need to pull the transmission and replace slave, master and line.

Tried, didn't see any fluid flowing into reservoir. Also doesn't appear my fluid level has dropped any. Should the the fluid be filled to the top (minus the amount the diaphragm pushing it out) or did I just not see a "fill" line?

 

[Mark_88]

Fluid level should be below the rubber cup that sits in the reservoir. There is a line that is supposed to represent where to fill it too...

Sounds like you need to actually test drive it a bit more if the differential is fixed now...and see what happens. I wouldn't go too far from home...30 minutes will get you a half hour out of town (Doh!) and then head back to double the time...or just drive 20 minutes one way...

 

[TheStrangerRanger]

Fluid level should be below the rubber cup that sits in the reservoir. There is a line that is supposed to represent where to fill it too...

Sounds like you need to actually test drive it a bit more if the differential is fixed now...and see what happens. I wouldn't go too far from home...30 minutes will get you a half hour out of town (Doh!) and then head back to double the time...or just drive 20 minutes one way...

Right, I have been driving for 20 to 25 minutes at a time (3-4 times) and only thing I have noticed is that two times i grinded going back into first because the pedal wasn't completely on the floor (maybe my lack of manual experience but i thought there was a little bit of wiggle room). My only fear i have is that where i live is very hills-and-valleys, no mountains or anything but steep enough hills I don't want to lose my clutch on, but you're right I should take it out for longer period of time to "experience" exactly what happens. But theoretically, if I take the stick off the clutch and let it for sit for a period of time and then see what it does, that should have the same effect, right? (i.e. experience the clutch go out a few hundred feet away from home as opposed to the other side of town).

 

[Mazda]

Right, I have been driving for 20 to 25 minutes at a time (3-4 times) and only thing I have noticed is that two times i grinded going back into first because the pedal wasn't completely on the floor (maybe my lack of manual experience but i thought there was a little bit of wiggle room). My only fear i have is that where i live is very hills-and-valleys, no mountains or anything but steep enough hills I don't want to lose my clutch on, but you're right I should take it out for longer period of time to "experience" exactly what happens. But theoretically, if I take the stick off the clutch and let it for sit for a period of time and then see what it does, that should have the same effect, right? (i.e. experience the clutch go out a few hundred feet away from home as opposed to the other side of town).

What's your location.? Maybe you have a member close to you that can come by and help you out with this. When my brother first got his license and car he didn't know how to drive a stick at all kept coming back to the house saying it car wasn't working right or they put something together wrong. I would drive it around all day no problems. Not saying you don't know how to drive just takes some getting used to.

 

[TheStrangerRanger]

What's your location.? Maybe you have a member close to you that can come by and help you out with this. When my brother first got his license and car he didn't know how to drive a stick at all kept coming back to the house saying it car wasn't working right or they put something together wrong. I would drive it around all day no problems. Not saying you don't know how to drive just takes some getting used to.

I am in northern part of Massillon (ohio) in Jackson Township, that would be cool to get another opinion on it.

I would agree that i just need more time on the stick, but it was my brother who drove the truck for 2-3 years before me that told me no one could get the clutch to work properly. I just got the differential fixed this weekend so I am hoping that I can get it out for a longer period of time and experience the problem for myself, then again I dont want to get myself into a sticky situation.

 

[Mark_88]

More of a long shot since you've replaced the parts a few times...but if this persists...when you have time, roll back the carpets and inspect the floor seams. I had a seam break on me once and danged if I could get the clutch to work properly...it will most likely go back into place without being helped, but it will eventually break....on a newer truck the metal is flexible but strong...

Just a thought...

EDIT: I also realized that the clutch on newer trucks is not directly attached to the firewall...it goes into the bracket just beyond the firewall and isn't touching the firewall at all...unless they changed things again after 96...

 

[tomw]

Is it possible for the wrong parts to have been installed the 1st time through, and everyone following is replacing with the same part numbers? Has anyone checked the part numbers to be sure they are correct?
The master, tubing and slave cylinder are all there is(save the pushrod,pedal & pivot).
Unless the pushrod, pedal, and pedal pivot bracketry are different on this truck, it should work. If a short pushrod had been installed, due to a part change during the model year, it could possibly fall out of place inside the master?
I am just doing some SWAG-ing here...
tom

 

[TheStrangerRanger]

More of a long shot since you've replaced the parts a few times...but if this persists...when you have time, roll back the carpets and inspect the floor seams. I had a seam break on me once and danged if I could get the clutch to work properly...it will most likely go back into place without being helped, but it will eventually break....on a newer truck the metal is flexible but strong...

Just a thought...

EDIT: I also realized that the clutch on newer trucks is not directly attached to the firewall...it goes into the bracket just beyond the firewall and isn't touching the firewall at all...unless they changed things again after 96...

*knock on wood* but today i took the stick off the clutch pedal and let it sit, for 30 minutes and everything seemed fine and then another 45+/- minutes and everything seem fine; so i took it out for a drive around the block, which turned into an hour joy ride around town. Didn't have any problems, the only thing notable this that physically moving the stick back into first gear i feel a little resistance more so than i think should be but then again last time I drove stick was 10 years ago..

So who knows, maybe it did fixed itself or maybe i just didnt drive it long enough to have it go on the fritz. I am going to leave the stick out overnight and drive it some more this weekend and see what happens.

 

[Mark_88]

Well, here's hoping!

I've never had the same problem and I've had three different (or was it two) M5OD-R1 transmissions (like yours)...one that I put on 400,000 km or so and one with 320,000 km...they shift smooth and except for the odd buzzing sound from the shifter rattling around have been pretty quiet...

Hope it stays cleared for you...

 

[TheStrangerRanger]

No luck, but I have a little more information

So after leaving the clutch engaged (pedal not depressed) for about 24 hours, this is what i noticed:

After starting the truck with the clutch disengaged (pedal depressed), it was very hard to move the stick into either 1st gear or reverse; so i back out of driveway and drove around the block and noticed that it was hard (lots of resistance) to physically move the stick from gear to gear, but i think (memory is failing a bit) it was easier to shift up gears than down gears. When I pulled back into driveway, i shut the truck off and "dry shifted" (for lack of a better term) with the clutch disengaged and there was not resistance. Started the truck back up and back to the resistance moving gears (without engaging the clutch).

I let it sit for another 30 minutes with the stick pressing the pedal down and drove it around and it was back to normal.... I guess this means that worse case scenario, if i just hold in the pedal for awhile it will go back to normal but i would still rather figure out the problem and fix it as long as the cost is less than the inconvenience.

EDIT: Also, just an after thought; is it possible that I was actually just shifting without the clutch (even though i had the pedal pushed down)? I suppose not, if i could be stationary in 1st gear.. but maybe?

EDIT #2: For the sake of informing, nothing seem different about the pedal itself, at most (again failing memory) it seemed to have just a hair more play at the top, but it wasn't anything significantly noticeable and it may not even be the case. But i know people get "soft" pedals or pedals that sink to the floor, but that this the case here.