Coronavirus

[PetroleumJunkie412]

Hey, serious question for the current / former LEOs, legal people, etc.

What is the legal rationale behind dui laws? Public endangerment, correct?

In pure thought experiment, could the same be said about someone's "right to be contagious"?

In other words, those that won't wear a mask in public during a pandemic, would they be endangering the public as someone potentially spreading the desease?

 

[Jim Oaks]

I know of (2) cases where women have been arrested and charged for threatening to spread the COVID-19. Both were out in public, and both claimed to have it. Ironically one was in Ohio (where I moved from), and the other is in Texas (where I moved to).

I've seen some nasty DUI crashes. The last one I saw was a woman that hit a mini-van head on, and flipped it in with a mom, dad, and about 4 kids in it. So yes, the problem with DUI is that people don't have complete control of themselves, and in some cases, almost no control at all. You know, delayed reactions, motor skills, blah blah, you've heard it.

In Texas, the girl was charged with making a terroristic threat. A 3rd degree felony.

In Ohio, they charged her with Exposing Others To A Contagion. That law goes back to 1970's.

Also In Ohio, it's a felony for people who know they have HIV, viral hepatitis or tuberculosis to intentionally expose another person to their blood, semen, urine, feces or other bodily substances such as saliva with the intent to harass or threaten the person.

 

[97RangerXLT]

Hey, serious question for the current / former LEOs, legal people, etc.

What is the legal rationale behind dui laws? Public endangerment, correct?

In pure thought experiment, could the same be said about someone's "right to be contagious"?

In other words, those that won't wear a mask in public during a pandemic, would they be endangering the public as someone potentially spreading the desease?

Disclaimer*** I am not a lawyer or LEO...

But the DUI laws while being brought on by the reason of public safety, do have actual statutes in each state/ municipality to back up the LEO making the arrest and for the lawyers to defend or prosecute the accused. So if I go get snockered and take the Ranger out for a spin and get pulled over, I get the DUI, plus go to court where the judge gives me my sentence based on actual statutes in the law that were written for being drunk while driving. the lawyers sort out any legal interpretations and the Judge makes his decision based on those statutes and whatever the lawyers present to him that ultimately support those statutes.

If I go out without a mask in public I would be at this point endangering myself or if I did have COVID-19 endangering others, but there is currently not statute (that I am aware of) that says "I must wear a mask in public for public safety" . Basically I might be arrested or fined by an officer, but one trip to a half mediocre lawyer and that will be thrown out, and if arrested I would probably have a case against the arresting officer/ police department. In a court of law, there are no statutes to back up my arrest or fine for not wearing a mask.

If the area where I was arrested/ fined happened to have its poop in a group and did quickly pass such a law or statute, well that is a different story, but I would imagine that most laws passed in regards to this right now won't stand up to legal muster more than wasting time and money of all involved.


AJ

 

[97RangerXLT]

In Jim's post above, that is a good example of enforcing laws already on the books. the two cases cited tho are overt criminal acts that could be charged with. I also think that the prosecuting attorney would have to prove intent. so the guy goes out to get groceries, forgets his mask or doesn't even think of putting one on... is that intent to infect or kill? maybe negligence... I would bet that he would get off tho...

AJ

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

I know of (2) cases where women have been arrested and charged for threatening to spread the COVID-19. Both were out in public, and both claimed to have it. Ironically one was in Ohio (where I moved from), and the other is in Texas (where I moved to).

I've seen some nasty DUI crashes. The last one I saw was a woman that hit a mini-van head on, and flipped it in with a mom, dad, and about 4 kids in it. So yes, the problem with DUI is that people don't have complete control of themselves, and in some cases, almost no control at all. You know, delayed reactions, motor skills, blah blah, you've heard it.

In Texas, the girl was charged with making a terroristic threat. A 3rd degree felony.

In Ohio, they charged her with Exposing Others To A Contagion. That law goes back to 1970's.

Also In Ohio, it's a felony for people who know they have HIV, viral hepatitis or tuberculosis to intentionally expose another person to their blood, semen, urine, feces or other bodily substances such as saliva with the intent to harass or threaten the person.

Exactly what I was asking. Ohio law vs Texas are the two I had in mind. Either could be a zeitgeist bench ruling but with different precidents. Both would hinge on intent, or extension of old law found to be legally useful.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

Also asking because they technically did this during 1918 outbreak in Cali IIRC. Got violent a few times.

 

[Dirtman]

There are generally plenty of "catch-all" laws that officers can use no matter what. So while you think hey theres no law against me not wearing a mask. There are always laws like "failure to comply with an officer", "causing a public nuisance", "disorderly conduct" etc that have such insanely vague definitions that they can be used for almost anything. Granted these types of laws are generally petty offences but they can still be costly.

So here in NJ they are "ordering" everyone to wear face coverings in stores as of tomorrow. Is it a law? Not technically, but that doesn't mean you can't be fined or even arrested if you refuse because there's plenty of other laws in the ole legal toolbox to throw at you.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

There are generally plenty of "catch-all" laws that officers can use no matter what. So while you think hey theres no law against me not wearing a mask. There are always laws like "failure to comply with an officer", "causing a public nuisance", "disorderly conduct" etc that have such insanely vague definitions that they can be used for almost anything. Granted these types of laws are generally petty offences but they can still be costly.

So here in NJ they are "ordering" everyone to wear face coverings in stores as of tomorrow. Is it a law? Not technically, but that doesn't mean you can't be fined or even arrested if you refuse because there's plenty of other laws in the ole legal toolbox to throw at you.

Because prosecutors are elected on win records, which is a totally sane thing, right?

 

[Dirtman]

I dont know how it works in higher courts but there's no election for municple prosecutors here. My township prosecutors and public defenders are generally the same people and just take turns. Usually crappy lawyers who need extra cash. You could go to court one day for one thing and have a public defender who later is your prosecuter if you go to court again.

 

[RonD]

It would be a way to get the covid 19 test quickly

If you were "arrested" or detained for NOT wearing a mask in public then they would have to prove you have it, covid 19, or there is no "crime" of public endangerment.

Now if there was a by-law added about everyone wearing a mask in public then you could be ticketed for that, not wearing one, not sure by-laws are enforceable by arresting someone, just ticketing I think

But you also have to define "mask", Halloween mask?
What does it have to be made off?
Where does it have to be on your face, what about beards?
Is a bandana a mask, a scarf, a pillow case?
Heath workers need masks of a certain quality, is this quality required?

Pretty slippery slope for governments
A store can have a "policy" of all customers must wear masks or they can't come in, i.e. "no shirt, no shoes, no service" falls in the same category, no legal issues

 

[Dirtman]

Me and my friend discussed this the other day.... Say you get arrested for violating curfew not wearing a mask or some other dumb crap. First the courts are all closed so they cant process anything. Second they are letting non violent people out of jail in droves.

So they give you a fine, you say screw you im not paying it, they put you in jail, then you get released anyway cause the jails don't want you.

 

[RonD]

Naw, they would just throw you in a cell with someone that tested positive then leave you overnight, test you the next day and then with your positive result charge you with Public endangerment then put you in a cell with the next poor schmuck that just got detained for curfew and no mask
Real money maker when times get tough

With traffic at an all time low the speeding ticket money is drying up, got to be inventive these days

 

[Snoranger]

@Dirtman
It is enforceable by a fine. It’s in executive order #107. Read line 25 to see how they can enforce it. I don’t know about arresting you, I didn’t check those statue #s.

 

[PetroleumJunkie412]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/02/everyone-wore-masks-during-1918-flu-pandemic-they-were-useless/

 

[sgtsandman]

I think the mask requirement is meant to make the general public feel good with a visible measure than anything. The government has to show that it is "doing something". People feel so much better when the government does that, even if it is ineffectual, much like a lot of other things it does. Because people scream "do something' at them, many don't care if it is the right or wrong thing, just that it's "something".